Devil and the deep blue sea (Score: 5, Insightful) by danieldvorkin@pipedot.org on 2014-03-30 20:07 (#W1) Boys in this situation have no good choices. If they fight back, they'll be crucified for "hitting a girl." If they don't, they're wimps who got "beat up by a girl." The main difference between this and the unknown number of similar cases is that the girls were dumb enough to publicize it. Re: Devil and the deep blue sea (Score: 1) by rocks@pipedot.org on 2014-04-01 01:13 (#WX) As the rights of women to be strong or masculine rises, at least in some parts of the world, it is interesting to ponder that the rights of men to be weak or feminine has not risen equally. It would seem that changing stereotypes and assumptions is not a zero sum game that is always in some sort of balance. Re: Devil and the deep blue sea (Score: 2, Interesting) by vanderhoth@pipedot.org on 2014-04-01 11:08 (#X1) Actually an overly feminist friend of mine posted a story on my facebook page about how we need to stop telling our boys to "man up". Reading the article was like driving screwdrivers into my eye sockets. The whole premise was we use things like "your such a girl" as an insult thus we're implying that women are weak and a suitable insult, but instead of saying we should expect our girls to be more emotionally stable, intelligent, hard working and strong we should expect our boys to be more like our girls. That's to say we should let our boys to be emotionally vulnerable, tell them it's ok to fail and *require* someone else to help them. Why The Men's Rights Movement Is Garbage I'm really not ok with that. I don't understand why instead of expecting *more* from our girls we should be expecting *less* from our boys. Re: Devil and the deep blue sea (Score: 1) by rocks@pipedot.org on 2014-04-01 17:30 (#XK) I like your point, we should expect more from each other, male or female. However, here are two concrete examples from my life which feel more nuanced.My very young son loves to dance, ideally I would like to put him in dance classes, maybe even ballet to learn the excellent technique. I quite likely won't though because I fear the stigma for a boy in dance classes more.A husband of a friend is currently under-enemployed. She brings home the money and does most of the domestic stuff. He is deeply embarrassed to not be providing money for his family but is quite hostile to asking for help, especially from his wife, even if it could result in employment. Helping with the domestic stuff may not heal his sense of worth to his family eitherThere may be more to being a man than current conventions allow. It's not just about allowing weakness in some frail sort of way, I suspect. What do you think? Re: Devil and the deep blue sea (Score: 2, Informative) by cubancigar11@pipedot.org on 2014-04-02 07:19 (#Y0) I find that a broader point about what is feminism - is it a philosophy/way of life, or a result of your genital organs/hormonal differences - is generally missing in these types of discussion. I have found out that a good way to tackle this problem is to understand that feminism (today) is a collection of competing ideologies that sprung up from women suffrage and its precursors.For example, the identity of men is derived from a lot of... "tropes", shall I say. For example, office politics is said to be a "men's game", often by men. They will ask a phd student to "man up" and accept loss when his professor steals his work. Often it will be women saying "it is a man's world" when they see shitty country level politics. Thus, you get both men and women referring to politicking as a masculine trait. This is gender bias without a doubt, with 'feminism' being defined as a philosophical difference. "An employee is the boss' bitch and the manager is 'The Man'".Then we have "sexism" where women are considered poor at maths, lack voting rights because 'they are prone to mood swings and irrational behavior', and until very recently lacked the rights to fight for their country because 'they are physically weaker'. Now, women in general ARE physically weaker, but it cannot be a basis for discrimination because of a lot of men are a lot weaker!The feminist friend of GP was referring to the first type of discrimination. Look here for a TED talk by Tony Porter about it. It is not about 'expecting more' from both men and women, it is about removing this idea that 'delivering less' is girly (which GP possesses, sorry dude!). It is important to accept that a lot of boys DO get beaten up and that there shouldn't be a shame in getting beaten up by girls, there should be pride in standing up to a bully and shame in being the person who beats. Asking a parent/police to intervene shouldn't be talked about as being 'bitchy' and 'complaining like a girl'. That IS the right form of protest.If you think about it, the philosophical difference is being called 'feminism' purely because your choice of words. If we didn't call politicking a "man's game", we wouldn't be fighting based on sex but we would be fighting over our collective worker's right. Re: Devil and the deep blue sea (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on 2014-08-18 02:47 (#3YE) I'm a 45 year old man and for most of my life I would have disagreed that a woman could overpower a man until a drunk 21 year old woman at the bar mistook me for someone else and started fighting with me a few months ago. Unfortunately I havn't worked out in years and I forgot how strong 21 year olds can be...needless to say the woman schooled me, owned me, and actually sent me to the ER. We live in a day in age where women, especially young women, workout, a lot. I can attest I learned the hard way that a guy who doesn't work out is going to be weaker than a woman who does. I've since started working out and doing some weight training however I am in no way advocating hiting a woman although I think it's equally wrong for a woman to hit a man assuming he can "take it." In my case the woman pushed me up against a wall and I wasn't physically strong enough to stop her. I could tell by the smile on her face that she even realized this. She even asked me how it felt "to get owned by a girl" once she had me pinned against the wall. Unfortunately she punched me before I could try to talk her out of doing anything more which kind of took me by surprise. I went down with her second punch. Sadly the woman still didn't think that was enough and kicked me in the face when I tried to get up. Fortunately she had barefeet so it wasn't as bad as it could have been, but after that kick, I was out. Not a spot I ever want to be in again. Having been in this spot though, I don't see any problem with a guy reasonably defending himself (if he's able) but only to the point he can get away and prevent a woman from beating him to a pulp.
Re: Devil and the deep blue sea (Score: 1) by rocks@pipedot.org on 2014-04-01 01:13 (#WX) As the rights of women to be strong or masculine rises, at least in some parts of the world, it is interesting to ponder that the rights of men to be weak or feminine has not risen equally. It would seem that changing stereotypes and assumptions is not a zero sum game that is always in some sort of balance. Re: Devil and the deep blue sea (Score: 2, Interesting) by vanderhoth@pipedot.org on 2014-04-01 11:08 (#X1) Actually an overly feminist friend of mine posted a story on my facebook page about how we need to stop telling our boys to "man up". Reading the article was like driving screwdrivers into my eye sockets. The whole premise was we use things like "your such a girl" as an insult thus we're implying that women are weak and a suitable insult, but instead of saying we should expect our girls to be more emotionally stable, intelligent, hard working and strong we should expect our boys to be more like our girls. That's to say we should let our boys to be emotionally vulnerable, tell them it's ok to fail and *require* someone else to help them. Why The Men's Rights Movement Is Garbage I'm really not ok with that. I don't understand why instead of expecting *more* from our girls we should be expecting *less* from our boys. Re: Devil and the deep blue sea (Score: 1) by rocks@pipedot.org on 2014-04-01 17:30 (#XK) I like your point, we should expect more from each other, male or female. However, here are two concrete examples from my life which feel more nuanced.My very young son loves to dance, ideally I would like to put him in dance classes, maybe even ballet to learn the excellent technique. I quite likely won't though because I fear the stigma for a boy in dance classes more.A husband of a friend is currently under-enemployed. She brings home the money and does most of the domestic stuff. He is deeply embarrassed to not be providing money for his family but is quite hostile to asking for help, especially from his wife, even if it could result in employment. Helping with the domestic stuff may not heal his sense of worth to his family eitherThere may be more to being a man than current conventions allow. It's not just about allowing weakness in some frail sort of way, I suspect. What do you think? Re: Devil and the deep blue sea (Score: 2, Informative) by cubancigar11@pipedot.org on 2014-04-02 07:19 (#Y0) I find that a broader point about what is feminism - is it a philosophy/way of life, or a result of your genital organs/hormonal differences - is generally missing in these types of discussion. I have found out that a good way to tackle this problem is to understand that feminism (today) is a collection of competing ideologies that sprung up from women suffrage and its precursors.For example, the identity of men is derived from a lot of... "tropes", shall I say. For example, office politics is said to be a "men's game", often by men. They will ask a phd student to "man up" and accept loss when his professor steals his work. Often it will be women saying "it is a man's world" when they see shitty country level politics. Thus, you get both men and women referring to politicking as a masculine trait. This is gender bias without a doubt, with 'feminism' being defined as a philosophical difference. "An employee is the boss' bitch and the manager is 'The Man'".Then we have "sexism" where women are considered poor at maths, lack voting rights because 'they are prone to mood swings and irrational behavior', and until very recently lacked the rights to fight for their country because 'they are physically weaker'. Now, women in general ARE physically weaker, but it cannot be a basis for discrimination because of a lot of men are a lot weaker!The feminist friend of GP was referring to the first type of discrimination. Look here for a TED talk by Tony Porter about it. It is not about 'expecting more' from both men and women, it is about removing this idea that 'delivering less' is girly (which GP possesses, sorry dude!). It is important to accept that a lot of boys DO get beaten up and that there shouldn't be a shame in getting beaten up by girls, there should be pride in standing up to a bully and shame in being the person who beats. Asking a parent/police to intervene shouldn't be talked about as being 'bitchy' and 'complaining like a girl'. That IS the right form of protest.If you think about it, the philosophical difference is being called 'feminism' purely because your choice of words. If we didn't call politicking a "man's game", we wouldn't be fighting based on sex but we would be fighting over our collective worker's right. Re: Devil and the deep blue sea (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on 2014-08-18 02:47 (#3YE) I'm a 45 year old man and for most of my life I would have disagreed that a woman could overpower a man until a drunk 21 year old woman at the bar mistook me for someone else and started fighting with me a few months ago. Unfortunately I havn't worked out in years and I forgot how strong 21 year olds can be...needless to say the woman schooled me, owned me, and actually sent me to the ER. We live in a day in age where women, especially young women, workout, a lot. I can attest I learned the hard way that a guy who doesn't work out is going to be weaker than a woman who does. I've since started working out and doing some weight training however I am in no way advocating hiting a woman although I think it's equally wrong for a woman to hit a man assuming he can "take it." In my case the woman pushed me up against a wall and I wasn't physically strong enough to stop her. I could tell by the smile on her face that she even realized this. She even asked me how it felt "to get owned by a girl" once she had me pinned against the wall. Unfortunately she punched me before I could try to talk her out of doing anything more which kind of took me by surprise. I went down with her second punch. Sadly the woman still didn't think that was enough and kicked me in the face when I tried to get up. Fortunately she had barefeet so it wasn't as bad as it could have been, but after that kick, I was out. Not a spot I ever want to be in again. Having been in this spot though, I don't see any problem with a guy reasonably defending himself (if he's able) but only to the point he can get away and prevent a woman from beating him to a pulp.
Re: Devil and the deep blue sea (Score: 2, Interesting) by vanderhoth@pipedot.org on 2014-04-01 11:08 (#X1) Actually an overly feminist friend of mine posted a story on my facebook page about how we need to stop telling our boys to "man up". Reading the article was like driving screwdrivers into my eye sockets. The whole premise was we use things like "your such a girl" as an insult thus we're implying that women are weak and a suitable insult, but instead of saying we should expect our girls to be more emotionally stable, intelligent, hard working and strong we should expect our boys to be more like our girls. That's to say we should let our boys to be emotionally vulnerable, tell them it's ok to fail and *require* someone else to help them. Why The Men's Rights Movement Is Garbage I'm really not ok with that. I don't understand why instead of expecting *more* from our girls we should be expecting *less* from our boys. Re: Devil and the deep blue sea (Score: 1) by rocks@pipedot.org on 2014-04-01 17:30 (#XK) I like your point, we should expect more from each other, male or female. However, here are two concrete examples from my life which feel more nuanced.My very young son loves to dance, ideally I would like to put him in dance classes, maybe even ballet to learn the excellent technique. I quite likely won't though because I fear the stigma for a boy in dance classes more.A husband of a friend is currently under-enemployed. She brings home the money and does most of the domestic stuff. He is deeply embarrassed to not be providing money for his family but is quite hostile to asking for help, especially from his wife, even if it could result in employment. Helping with the domestic stuff may not heal his sense of worth to his family eitherThere may be more to being a man than current conventions allow. It's not just about allowing weakness in some frail sort of way, I suspect. What do you think? Re: Devil and the deep blue sea (Score: 2, Informative) by cubancigar11@pipedot.org on 2014-04-02 07:19 (#Y0) I find that a broader point about what is feminism - is it a philosophy/way of life, or a result of your genital organs/hormonal differences - is generally missing in these types of discussion. I have found out that a good way to tackle this problem is to understand that feminism (today) is a collection of competing ideologies that sprung up from women suffrage and its precursors.For example, the identity of men is derived from a lot of... "tropes", shall I say. For example, office politics is said to be a "men's game", often by men. They will ask a phd student to "man up" and accept loss when his professor steals his work. Often it will be women saying "it is a man's world" when they see shitty country level politics. Thus, you get both men and women referring to politicking as a masculine trait. This is gender bias without a doubt, with 'feminism' being defined as a philosophical difference. "An employee is the boss' bitch and the manager is 'The Man'".Then we have "sexism" where women are considered poor at maths, lack voting rights because 'they are prone to mood swings and irrational behavior', and until very recently lacked the rights to fight for their country because 'they are physically weaker'. Now, women in general ARE physically weaker, but it cannot be a basis for discrimination because of a lot of men are a lot weaker!The feminist friend of GP was referring to the first type of discrimination. Look here for a TED talk by Tony Porter about it. It is not about 'expecting more' from both men and women, it is about removing this idea that 'delivering less' is girly (which GP possesses, sorry dude!). It is important to accept that a lot of boys DO get beaten up and that there shouldn't be a shame in getting beaten up by girls, there should be pride in standing up to a bully and shame in being the person who beats. Asking a parent/police to intervene shouldn't be talked about as being 'bitchy' and 'complaining like a girl'. That IS the right form of protest.If you think about it, the philosophical difference is being called 'feminism' purely because your choice of words. If we didn't call politicking a "man's game", we wouldn't be fighting based on sex but we would be fighting over our collective worker's right. Re: Devil and the deep blue sea (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on 2014-08-18 02:47 (#3YE) I'm a 45 year old man and for most of my life I would have disagreed that a woman could overpower a man until a drunk 21 year old woman at the bar mistook me for someone else and started fighting with me a few months ago. Unfortunately I havn't worked out in years and I forgot how strong 21 year olds can be...needless to say the woman schooled me, owned me, and actually sent me to the ER. We live in a day in age where women, especially young women, workout, a lot. I can attest I learned the hard way that a guy who doesn't work out is going to be weaker than a woman who does. I've since started working out and doing some weight training however I am in no way advocating hiting a woman although I think it's equally wrong for a woman to hit a man assuming he can "take it." In my case the woman pushed me up against a wall and I wasn't physically strong enough to stop her. I could tell by the smile on her face that she even realized this. She even asked me how it felt "to get owned by a girl" once she had me pinned against the wall. Unfortunately she punched me before I could try to talk her out of doing anything more which kind of took me by surprise. I went down with her second punch. Sadly the woman still didn't think that was enough and kicked me in the face when I tried to get up. Fortunately she had barefeet so it wasn't as bad as it could have been, but after that kick, I was out. Not a spot I ever want to be in again. Having been in this spot though, I don't see any problem with a guy reasonably defending himself (if he's able) but only to the point he can get away and prevent a woman from beating him to a pulp.
Re: Devil and the deep blue sea (Score: 1) by rocks@pipedot.org on 2014-04-01 17:30 (#XK) I like your point, we should expect more from each other, male or female. However, here are two concrete examples from my life which feel more nuanced.My very young son loves to dance, ideally I would like to put him in dance classes, maybe even ballet to learn the excellent technique. I quite likely won't though because I fear the stigma for a boy in dance classes more.A husband of a friend is currently under-enemployed. She brings home the money and does most of the domestic stuff. He is deeply embarrassed to not be providing money for his family but is quite hostile to asking for help, especially from his wife, even if it could result in employment. Helping with the domestic stuff may not heal his sense of worth to his family eitherThere may be more to being a man than current conventions allow. It's not just about allowing weakness in some frail sort of way, I suspect. What do you think? Re: Devil and the deep blue sea (Score: 2, Informative) by cubancigar11@pipedot.org on 2014-04-02 07:19 (#Y0) I find that a broader point about what is feminism - is it a philosophy/way of life, or a result of your genital organs/hormonal differences - is generally missing in these types of discussion. I have found out that a good way to tackle this problem is to understand that feminism (today) is a collection of competing ideologies that sprung up from women suffrage and its precursors.For example, the identity of men is derived from a lot of... "tropes", shall I say. For example, office politics is said to be a "men's game", often by men. They will ask a phd student to "man up" and accept loss when his professor steals his work. Often it will be women saying "it is a man's world" when they see shitty country level politics. Thus, you get both men and women referring to politicking as a masculine trait. This is gender bias without a doubt, with 'feminism' being defined as a philosophical difference. "An employee is the boss' bitch and the manager is 'The Man'".Then we have "sexism" where women are considered poor at maths, lack voting rights because 'they are prone to mood swings and irrational behavior', and until very recently lacked the rights to fight for their country because 'they are physically weaker'. Now, women in general ARE physically weaker, but it cannot be a basis for discrimination because of a lot of men are a lot weaker!The feminist friend of GP was referring to the first type of discrimination. Look here for a TED talk by Tony Porter about it. It is not about 'expecting more' from both men and women, it is about removing this idea that 'delivering less' is girly (which GP possesses, sorry dude!). It is important to accept that a lot of boys DO get beaten up and that there shouldn't be a shame in getting beaten up by girls, there should be pride in standing up to a bully and shame in being the person who beats. Asking a parent/police to intervene shouldn't be talked about as being 'bitchy' and 'complaining like a girl'. That IS the right form of protest.If you think about it, the philosophical difference is being called 'feminism' purely because your choice of words. If we didn't call politicking a "man's game", we wouldn't be fighting based on sex but we would be fighting over our collective worker's right. Re: Devil and the deep blue sea (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on 2014-08-18 02:47 (#3YE) I'm a 45 year old man and for most of my life I would have disagreed that a woman could overpower a man until a drunk 21 year old woman at the bar mistook me for someone else and started fighting with me a few months ago. Unfortunately I havn't worked out in years and I forgot how strong 21 year olds can be...needless to say the woman schooled me, owned me, and actually sent me to the ER. We live in a day in age where women, especially young women, workout, a lot. I can attest I learned the hard way that a guy who doesn't work out is going to be weaker than a woman who does. I've since started working out and doing some weight training however I am in no way advocating hiting a woman although I think it's equally wrong for a woman to hit a man assuming he can "take it." In my case the woman pushed me up against a wall and I wasn't physically strong enough to stop her. I could tell by the smile on her face that she even realized this. She even asked me how it felt "to get owned by a girl" once she had me pinned against the wall. Unfortunately she punched me before I could try to talk her out of doing anything more which kind of took me by surprise. I went down with her second punch. Sadly the woman still didn't think that was enough and kicked me in the face when I tried to get up. Fortunately she had barefeet so it wasn't as bad as it could have been, but after that kick, I was out. Not a spot I ever want to be in again. Having been in this spot though, I don't see any problem with a guy reasonably defending himself (if he's able) but only to the point he can get away and prevent a woman from beating him to a pulp.
Re: Devil and the deep blue sea (Score: 2, Informative) by cubancigar11@pipedot.org on 2014-04-02 07:19 (#Y0) I find that a broader point about what is feminism - is it a philosophy/way of life, or a result of your genital organs/hormonal differences - is generally missing in these types of discussion. I have found out that a good way to tackle this problem is to understand that feminism (today) is a collection of competing ideologies that sprung up from women suffrage and its precursors.For example, the identity of men is derived from a lot of... "tropes", shall I say. For example, office politics is said to be a "men's game", often by men. They will ask a phd student to "man up" and accept loss when his professor steals his work. Often it will be women saying "it is a man's world" when they see shitty country level politics. Thus, you get both men and women referring to politicking as a masculine trait. This is gender bias without a doubt, with 'feminism' being defined as a philosophical difference. "An employee is the boss' bitch and the manager is 'The Man'".Then we have "sexism" where women are considered poor at maths, lack voting rights because 'they are prone to mood swings and irrational behavior', and until very recently lacked the rights to fight for their country because 'they are physically weaker'. Now, women in general ARE physically weaker, but it cannot be a basis for discrimination because of a lot of men are a lot weaker!The feminist friend of GP was referring to the first type of discrimination. Look here for a TED talk by Tony Porter about it. It is not about 'expecting more' from both men and women, it is about removing this idea that 'delivering less' is girly (which GP possesses, sorry dude!). It is important to accept that a lot of boys DO get beaten up and that there shouldn't be a shame in getting beaten up by girls, there should be pride in standing up to a bully and shame in being the person who beats. Asking a parent/police to intervene shouldn't be talked about as being 'bitchy' and 'complaining like a girl'. That IS the right form of protest.If you think about it, the philosophical difference is being called 'feminism' purely because your choice of words. If we didn't call politicking a "man's game", we wouldn't be fighting based on sex but we would be fighting over our collective worker's right. Re: Devil and the deep blue sea (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on 2014-08-18 02:47 (#3YE) I'm a 45 year old man and for most of my life I would have disagreed that a woman could overpower a man until a drunk 21 year old woman at the bar mistook me for someone else and started fighting with me a few months ago. Unfortunately I havn't worked out in years and I forgot how strong 21 year olds can be...needless to say the woman schooled me, owned me, and actually sent me to the ER. We live in a day in age where women, especially young women, workout, a lot. I can attest I learned the hard way that a guy who doesn't work out is going to be weaker than a woman who does. I've since started working out and doing some weight training however I am in no way advocating hiting a woman although I think it's equally wrong for a woman to hit a man assuming he can "take it." In my case the woman pushed me up against a wall and I wasn't physically strong enough to stop her. I could tell by the smile on her face that she even realized this. She even asked me how it felt "to get owned by a girl" once she had me pinned against the wall. Unfortunately she punched me before I could try to talk her out of doing anything more which kind of took me by surprise. I went down with her second punch. Sadly the woman still didn't think that was enough and kicked me in the face when I tried to get up. Fortunately she had barefeet so it wasn't as bad as it could have been, but after that kick, I was out. Not a spot I ever want to be in again. Having been in this spot though, I don't see any problem with a guy reasonably defending himself (if he's able) but only to the point he can get away and prevent a woman from beating him to a pulp.
Re: Devil and the deep blue sea (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on 2014-08-18 02:47 (#3YE) I'm a 45 year old man and for most of my life I would have disagreed that a woman could overpower a man until a drunk 21 year old woman at the bar mistook me for someone else and started fighting with me a few months ago. Unfortunately I havn't worked out in years and I forgot how strong 21 year olds can be...needless to say the woman schooled me, owned me, and actually sent me to the ER. We live in a day in age where women, especially young women, workout, a lot. I can attest I learned the hard way that a guy who doesn't work out is going to be weaker than a woman who does. I've since started working out and doing some weight training however I am in no way advocating hiting a woman although I think it's equally wrong for a woman to hit a man assuming he can "take it." In my case the woman pushed me up against a wall and I wasn't physically strong enough to stop her. I could tell by the smile on her face that she even realized this. She even asked me how it felt "to get owned by a girl" once she had me pinned against the wall. Unfortunately she punched me before I could try to talk her out of doing anything more which kind of took me by surprise. I went down with her second punch. Sadly the woman still didn't think that was enough and kicked me in the face when I tried to get up. Fortunately she had barefeet so it wasn't as bad as it could have been, but after that kick, I was out. Not a spot I ever want to be in again. Having been in this spot though, I don't see any problem with a guy reasonably defending himself (if he's able) but only to the point he can get away and prevent a woman from beating him to a pulp.