Story 2014-10-17 2TEV Debian to vote on init system... again

Debian to vote on init system... again

by
in linux on (#2TEV)
Ian Jackson is at it again.

A proposal has been submitted in the Debian vote mailing list to ensure that the next version of Debian, Jessie, will not require any specific init system. This comes after the Debian technical committee (TC) already decided in February to adopt systemd as the default init system for Jessie. The TC had left the door open for a general resolution to decide whether other init systems would be supported in Jessie. At this time, it appears that enough support has been garnered for the proposal to ensure that there will be a vote on this issue. From the text of the proposal:
This GR seeks to preserve the freedom of our users now to select an init system of their choice, and the project's freedom to select a different init system in the future. It will avoid Debian becoming accidentally locked in to a particular init system (for example, because so much unrelated software has ended up depending on a particular init system that the burden of effort required to change init system becomes too great). A number of init systems exist, and it is clear that there is not yet broad consensus as to what the best init system might look like.
When the TC debated the issue, keeping SysVinit was an unpopular opinion. The two real contenders were systemd and upstart, and there seemed to be a general agreement that the init system must change. Is this vote an attempt to delay the inevitable? Let's remember that the reason the TC had to vote on this issue is that the developers wanted to be set on which init system to support. Could this resolution end with Debian "supporting" other init systems as second-class citizen, with many developers choosing not to bother supporting anything that's not systemd?
Reply 19 comments

Supporting projects needed (Score: 1)

by evilviper@pipedot.org on 2014-10-18 00:46 (#2TEW)

It isn't just software depending on systemd, it's also projects that have been encompassed by it. Services few people even think about, like udev, dbus, and others, are being swallowed by systemd, and no longer developed as a result. A vote won't change reality, somebody is going to have to put in the time and money to pick up development of those and similar inglorious "glue" projects, to keep SystemV init working.

I could do without another systemd shouting-match...

Re: Supporting projects needed (Score: 2)

by nadaou@pipedot.org on 2014-10-18 07:58 (#2TEY)

To be honest I really wouldn't be sad if d-bus went away. It suffers many of the same design and philosophy clash problems that systemd does and more often than not is a major pain in the neck for sysadmins of serious workstations and servers. Creating files in /home which even root can't access? Are they nuts? I can actually put a number on the lost productivity-hours these Pottering creations have caused us and we're not an especially large outfit. NetworkManager, d-bus, systemd may be a fine solution for a personal laptop install of Fedora or Ubuntu, but that's about as far as it goes. And that's not Debian's target audience.
I could do without another systemd shouting-match...
Much better that we have our shouting matches now than the Debian project self-destructs later.

Re: Supporting projects needed (Score: 1)

by nadaou@pipedot.org on 2014-10-18 08:21 (#2TEZ)

Oh and story submitters, lets keep the trolling and editorializing to a minimum, eh?

Re: Supporting projects needed (Score: 1)

by skarjak@pipedot.org on 2014-10-18 13:29 (#2TF0)

Editorializing maybe, but there's zero trolling in there. I figured if my editiorializing wasn't accepted, the editor would just remove it.

Re: Supporting projects needed (Score: 1, Insightful)

by nadaou@pipedot.org on 2014-10-19 05:39 (#2TFA)

> but there's zero trolling in there.

specificially, I found this way over the top,
Is this vote an attempt to delay the inevitable?
and this
as second-class citizen, with many developpers choosing not to bother supporting anything that's not systemd?
the first is begging the question and a sophomoric rhetorical cliché, the second continues the fait accompli with rampant speculation and overall comes across as mainly designed to provoke a reactionary response by pressing people's buttons (thus the trolling).

I welcome the discussion and it's healthy to have it, but let's maintain some respectful decorum. Especially here, as one of the biggest complaints about Pottering is that he continually steers these discussions away from the technical and towards the emotional using (pretty lame) manipulative rhetorical tricks.

--
http://www.xenu.net/archive/baloney_detection.html

Re: Supporting projects needed (Score: 4, Insightful)

by zafiro17@pipedot.org on 2014-10-19 13:56 (#2TFD)

Your non-rhetorical, expertly developed, speculation-free articles are welcome. Submit button is at the top right of your screen. You know what to do.

Re: Supporting projects needed (Score: 0)

by Anonymous Coward on 2014-10-18 14:14 (#2TF3)

Yeah why provide any context, background, or opinion, right? Can't have anyone expressing a point of view on a topic they're submitting.

Nadaou says just provide the link and Pipe down.

I think he might be happier with automated Google News.

Re: Supporting projects needed (Score: 1)

by nadaou@pipedot.org on 2014-10-19 06:05 (#2TF9)

There is more subtlety in the world than just black and white my friend, and the world is a more beautiful place for it.

The GR doesn't attempt to change the default init for Jessie (Score: 1)

by seriously@pipedot.org on 2014-10-18 07:27 (#2TEX)

from the GR itself, section 3:
The TC's decision on the default init system for Linux in jessie stands undisturbed.
In other words, to systemd supporters: "don't panic", to systemd haters: "they're trying to find a solution that's good for everyone".
Is this vote an attempt to delay the inevitable?
On the one hand, there is no delaying systemd as the default init, that's a given. On the other hand, indeed, the main concern is that we're supposed to be only 3 weeks away from Jessie's freeze and that GR could delay the whole thing (as in a 2-month to 2-year delay depending on many factors).

Re: The GR doesn't attempt to change the default init for Jessie (Score: 2)

by skarjak@pipedot.org on 2014-10-18 13:32 (#2TF1)

When I wrote that, I meant that I saw as inevitable that systemd would eventually be the only init system with decent support from developpers. It's been adopted to be at the heart of pretty much every major distro now. In that sense, by trying to make it so the next version of Debian has to offer support for other init systems, they would be delaying the inevitable, since presumably the next version after that would get rid of this support. Although I guess you could argue the delay would help transition.

Re: The GR doesn't attempt to change the default init for Jessie (Score: 1)

by nadaou@pipedot.org on 2014-10-19 05:55 (#2TFB)

I see it differently, and so do the BSDs which will continue to evolve new generations of init system designs which the various cross-platform daemons will remain compatible with. If you are talking about GNOME's desktop notification daemons, they are perfectly expendable in the long run. Users choosing not to use systemd will likely not feel much loss at losing the likes of PulseAudio, NetworkManager, and D-Bus too. udev could be annoying, but it's not like we haven't replaced that before in the past and so couldn't do it again.

As the resolution and others have said, even with systemd as the default init, allowing it to position itself as a non-modular single supplier not able to be replaced is a much bigger problem than its run-time deficiencies.

Re: The GR doesn't attempt to change the default init for Jessie (Score: 0)

by Anonymous Coward on 2014-10-19 14:17 (#2TFH)

Dude, it's "developers", not "developpers". You best be careful or Ballmer will throw a chair at you!

Also, in the initial article, it should be "ensure", not "insure". "Insure" is for insurance. "Ensure" to make sure.

Re: The GR doesn't attempt to change the default init for Jessie (Score: 1)

by skarjak@pipedot.org on 2014-10-19 14:47 (#2TFJ)

Sorry, the French word for developer has two p's, which is where the confusion came from. I guess I will have to work on my chair dodging skills.

I did notice "ensure" should have been used after the fact, but I can't edit it now. It's really bugging me. >_<

Re: The GR doesn't attempt to change the default init for Jessie (Score: 0)

by Anonymous Coward on 2014-10-20 19:50 (#2TH9)

The idea of there being one init system to rule them all and in the darkness bind them I think has a LOT to do with negative attitudes toward systemd in the first place. If Poettering could spend more time coding and less time actively seeking the destruction of other functional, stable, and good software (before having anything all that stable/functional to replace it with, in many cases), he'd be a lot more welcome in my book. Pulseaudio works great when you need what it has to offer, and while there may be quirks about it I'd like to see done otherwise, well...that's hardly something I'd have much place complaining about not producing something that does what it does to replace it with. What doesn't work great is when you take out an underlying functionality and replace it with something unfinished and broken. When you simultaneously make going back purposely difficult or impossible, it's even more insidious.

I seriously hope he mellows out as he gets older. This "aint monoculture neat?" trend really is getting quite old, and for someone who apparently can make decent software tools FOR THOSE THAT WANT THEM, he really is wasting that on playing this Borg-ish villain role.

In any case, I'll keep using my SysV setup with BSD-style init scripts and pulseaudio and enjoying an open Linux environment while it lasts. Hopefully Debian can figure out a reasonable way to navigate the path ahead with some grace...it'd be a shame to see them dashed on the rocks by this state of affairs.

Re: The GR doesn't attempt to change the default init for Jessie (Score: 1, Insightful)

by nadaou@pipedot.org on 2014-10-19 05:59 (#2TFC)

oh yeah, and this:
Ian Jackson is at it again.
It doesn't add to the conversation and there's no need for it.

--
http://www.xenu.net/archive/baloney_detection.html

Re: The GR doesn't attempt to change the default init for Jessie (Score: 3, Insightful)

by zafiro17@pipedot.org on 2014-10-19 14:01 (#2TFE)

Neither does all this relentless bitching about how the article was submitted. I'm checking the queue history to get a sense of how many articles Nadaou has submitted. I don't see a single one.

It'd be easier to be concerned about how offensive you find this write-up if you'd contribute anything to the site yourself. Instead, you're just flapping your jaw in response to one of very few individuals who has bothered to invest the time and effort to make something of this site.

I'm appalled at how many whiny bitches have decided to make Pipedot their home. You don't like the articles? Here's your money back, every cent of what you paid.

Re: The GR doesn't attempt to change the default init for Jessie (Score: 0)

by Anonymous Coward on 2014-10-19 16:22 (#2TFP)

I suspect there are a few obsessives "on the spectrum". I've done my share of whining too but I agree completely with your frank assessment of this poster.

I continue to maintain that the ACs here are overall better contributors than the registered users, with a few notable exceptions on each side. Not sure why. Maybe just good moderation.

Re: The GR doesn't attempt to change the default init for Jessie (Score: 1)

by zafiro17@pipedot.org on 2014-10-19 19:47 (#2TFX)

As well, there are some ACs who are so interesting I wish they'd benefit from the karma as I mod them up! We've had some good, anonymous stuff here.