Comment 2TKK Re: Argument is Baloney

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Regulating the Internet "Like a Utility" Won't Yield an Open Internet

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Argument is Baloney (Score: 2, Insightful)

by Anonymous Coward on 2014-10-21 16:04 (#2TJC)

Okay I finally RTFA. They give up on the idea of common carrier immediately, without a fight, and their reasons make NO SENSE AT ALL. They compare how "easy" it was to require common carrier for telco traffic but somehow the Internet is "vastly more complicated". Their argument is bullshit.

"Congress enacted Title II in 1934 primarily to regulate telephone service. Telephones of that era delivered exactly one functionality: real-time voice transmission. Non-discrimination meant that everybody got a dial tone on equal terms. That was easy to regulate. Enforcement was easy, too, since one company handled local service in nearly every city and town, and was also the country's only long-distance provider.

The Internet is vastly more complicated, with astronomical numbers of providers and services. A simple rule saying nothing more than ISPs "shall not discriminate" would be meaningless. An ISP's capacity is, after all, finite. At peak times it may not be able to accommodate 100% of all potential content - email, Facebook posts, Netflix video, VoIP calls, people working from home, casual browsing. At those times, some discrimination must necessarily occur in allotting access to providers. The question, then, is how to ensure that the discrimination is "fair". An effective non-discrimination rule would give an ISP managing a traffic overload clear guidance on which bits to send on and which to hold back in every possible situation. More than that, a proper rule would let the ISP program in algorithms that make these decisions automatically, on the fly."

What, there was never a capacity limit on the ability of a local CO switch to handle voice traffic? Everybody gets a dial tone, no matter how many highrises suddenly appear? Let's see, where would that capacity come from... from the provider (AT&T in that scenario) PROPERLY MAINTAINING THEIR NETWORK. The ISP business is exactly NO different. They should keep their network maintained and upgraded to allow the traffic that they are actively selling to business and consumer. "An ISP's capacity is, after all, finite." As if 1930 AT&T's capacity was magically infinite.

What a load of hogwash. The entire article is a waste of time. You can tell it was written by lawyers and not technologists.

Even their "solution" reeks of magic non-techie thinking. Oh, the miracle of competition will suddenly mean that congested hybrid coax-fiber infrastructure and leased lines will be able to deliver higher capacity just by changing a bill-to address. Have these people ever SEEN a cable modem?? You're on Time Warner's cable infrastructure, you get the capacity of Time Warner's cable infrastructure, no matter who is branding it and collecting the checks.

Re: Argument is Baloney (Score: 0)

by Anonymous Coward on 2014-10-22 16:51 (#2TK8)

No rebuttals? I figured I must have gotten at least something wrong in my little screed. (For example, while competitors have to share the same cable plant, they don't necessarily have to use the same modems and certainly not the same upstream links. Though as far as I know Earthlink does.)

Re: Argument is Baloney (Score: 1)

by evilviper@pipedot.org on 2014-10-22 21:08 (#2TKK)

The article serves as a perfectly good rebuttal to everything you've said. But I guess I could point-out a few specifics:
What, there was never a capacity limit on the ability of a local CO switch to handle voice traffic?
For phones, you either got a dial-tone and your call connected, or it didn't. There was no equivalent to throttling a phone call. You weren't placing hundreds of calls at once, to services of different quality and needs. So policing the equal access with telephones was vastly more obvious and straight-forward than with internet.
They should keep their network maintained and upgraded to allow the traffic that they are actively selling to business and consumer.
Your ISP doesn't run a line to Netflix. Netflix's ISP doesn't pay your ISP a standard amount for every packet "connected". There is no single ISP for each geographic area to take responsibility. etc. Peering arrangements are very complex, and aren't just a matter of your ISP expanding its capacity to deliver what they sold you.
You can tell it was written by lawyers and not technologists.
The topic is laws and FCC regulations. The lawyers (that deal with technology) are the only ones with any insights to the topic. A "technologist" doesn't know jack about Title II.
the miracle of competition will suddenly mean that congested hybrid coax-fiber infrastructure and leased lines will be able to deliver higher capacity just by changing a bill-to address.
The problems Netflix and others are having has NOTHING to do with congestion over the last-mile... Net neutrality in general, similarly has little or nothing to do with last-mile congestion. The problems to be addressed are all past that point, in the respective backhauls, and peering points onto each ISP's network. Those would be completely different if you switched your ISP. Presumably, with several ISPs competing for customers, the one that throttles something like Netflix the worst, will lose many customers to competitors, and will changes their behavior if they want to keep them.

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2014-10-22 21:08
The article serves as a perfectly good rebuttal to everything you've said. But I guess I could point-out a few specifics:
What, there was never a capacity limit on the ability of a local CO switch to handle voice traffic?
For phones, you either got a dial-tone and your call connected, or it didn't. There was no equivalent to throttling a phone call. You weren't placing hundreds of calls at once, to services of different quality and needs. So policing the equal access with telephones was vastly more obvious and straight-forward than with internet.
They should keep their network maintained and upgraded to allow the traffic that they are actively selling to business and consumer.
Your ISP doesn't run a line to Netflix. Netflix's ISP doesn't pay your ISP a standard amount for every packet "connected". There is no single ISP for each geographic area to take responsibility. etc. Peering arrangements are very complex, and aren't just a matter of your ISP expanding its capacity to deliver what they sold you.
You can tell it was written by lawyers and not technologists.
The topic is laws and FCC regulations. The lawyers (that deal with technology) are the only ones with any insights to the topic. A "technologist" doesn't know jack about Title II.
the miracle of competition will suddenly mean that congested hybrid coax-fiber infrastructure and leased lines will be able to deliver higher capacity just by changing a bill-to address.
The problems Netflix and others are having has NOTHING to do with congestion over the last-mile... Net neutrality in general, similarly has little or nothing to do with last-mile congestion. The problems looking to be addressed are all past that point, in the respective backhauls, and peering points onto each ISP's network,. wThichose would be completely different if you switched your ISP from Time Warner to Earthlink. Presumably, with several ISPs competing for customers, the one that throttles something like Netflix the worst, will loses many customers to competitors, and will changes their behavior if they want to keep customers and make profits from them.

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