The collapse of Debian
by zeebra from LinuxQuestions.org on (#6GTJS)
There was a time where other distroes were contemplating if they should ship with KDE or Gnome desktop, while Debian would say; we will ship with both KDE and Gnome, and not only that, all other desktops too, and all window managers we can find, and additionally any other gui too.
Free software? You got it, we will champion that too! POSIX? Sure thing folks, we will support anything we can, or do our very best at doing so, and to make things more difficult, we will support it on the most arches of any GNU/Linux distro too. And if that wasn't enough, we will package and ship as many packs as we can for all that, the hugest selection we can come up with. You watch us do it!
Debian was the city between the hills where everyone could come and have their fill and rely upon for pretty much everything. The city had it all, and then more. You live over on that hill over there? Sure, come visit us and you will be well received. You need some help? Give us a ring and we will come right over and see what we can do. You live on that other hill over there? Or in the valley beyond, no problem, our reach and willingness is far and wide.
Debian was the champion of most causes of the community, and a darling of all, and it wasn't picky, rather wanting to support all and everything than just some. That's what made Debian the distro of choice for those who wanted to make their own distro. Or the distro of guidance for what choices to make. Debian supports it? Then sure, it will probably be supported for all eternity. It was a point of stability and reliance, setting good and sound standards and reasoning them out.
Fedora and Ubuntu has nothing on what Debian was, and Debian is no longer what it was. We no longer have in our midst that which we used to have, and now more than ever need.
POSIX, "out the door", FOSS, "who cares", standards, "meh", bsd/debian, "no way", mobiles, "pfff", the list goes on and on. Debian used to support it all, every part of it, from different Kernels with debian, to all different kinds of GUI's and everything in between. They were a rock of support for each of those components. The real Debian of today, were it still alive (RIP), would support 5 different kernels, 20 arches (at least), 5 different init systems, 10 different userlands (of which the primary one would still be GNU), Xorg and Wayland (and probably Mir too), and all the desktops and gui's, and everything in between.
Sure, that's alot of work, but they used to do nearly all that before, and they managed. It was the go to community for people who wanted to do experimental things, amazing things, the impossible, or just the plain necessary. It was a great community and they did well and thrived. It was the gathering place and the natural first choice for all interested parties/people.
Today we struggle with a more and more divided community, actually it's quite the opposite in practice, in the name of business expedience and profit GNU/Linux is becoming overly standardized and morphing into a kind single unitarian system where you have less and less choices. POSIX is flying out the window too, and they all hate freedom and GNU, so surely that's the next thing they will replace (they are already trying, slowly.. btw..) and throw out.
All this his is because there is no-one like Debian, and nobody to fill the role. The old C guard is done, having been replaced by the snake pit kids and all their python stuff (that's a language play btw, at least in my language, but probably not English). Who is even at Debian anymore? Aside from Debian, the only super core we have left is the old graying C guard, but they don't have the energy to fight for us, and the cracks are starting to show there as well. They don't deserve the burden of this, they have done enough already, and btw, they are still going strong too. I don't blame them or the Kernel community or GNU or those kind of people for any of this, it's purely a Debian issue, and due to the role Debian had, it has a ring effect on the larger ecosystem, a kind of succulent void.
So, who would fork a distro in 2023 and say that Debian is the clear choice of base for such a "new" distro project? The questions is rather, is it a choice at all? The integrity of Debian anno 2023 seems like that of a jellyfish. I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer or the brightest expert, but before this very post, Debian has not even entered my mind for years and years, even probably a decade. And I used Debian for years back about 2004-2008, but it seems to have become a completely irrelevant distro in my mind, so much that I haven't given it any thought at all for so long. I know I'm not a measure of things and that it probably sounds harsh or overexhaggerated, but is it really?
Debian might still be in the vicinity for many, and it surely isn't irrelevant. But has it lost its place and even its way? Personally I think so, and I'm pretty sure at least some people would agree with that. So what is Debian nowadays anyways? Is it just becoming another distro? A kind of flavourless floater among other distroes that one can chose to use or ignore. If things continue inside Debian like now, they will become a champion of nobody and a gathering place for the few. They will keep dropping more and more of their unique projects, they will support less and less alternatives, they will no longer be a free software proponent, no longer care about POSIX. Why would anyone chose Debian over say Arch, Gentoo, Fedora or even Ubuntu (yes, Ubuntu) if Debian is just a narrow minded, narrow purpose distro? There are other contenders too that might be interesting to mention like NixOS/Guix. Why would anyone start with Debian in 2023 or 2025 or 2026? Is it even stable and reliable anymore, or is it a mess that is falling in on itself slowly but surely? With people leaving, projects falling apart and even what used to be the core principles and tenets being in danger. I don't know what is going on over there in lala land, but I'm living here in the real world, and things aren't looking too good. Perhaps I'm badly informed, lacking knowledge and understanding, but I'm also a 20+ year user of GNU/Linux distros, including Debian, and I take an interesting in these things, so I'm not completely blank either, it's not a puff out of nowhere I don't think. But what exactly is the supposed role Debian is suppose to play in the GNU/Linux distro ecosystem these days? Do they even know anymore?
Is Debian even a strong one among GNU/Linux distros anymore or are they just weaklings?
Free software? You got it, we will champion that too! POSIX? Sure thing folks, we will support anything we can, or do our very best at doing so, and to make things more difficult, we will support it on the most arches of any GNU/Linux distro too. And if that wasn't enough, we will package and ship as many packs as we can for all that, the hugest selection we can come up with. You watch us do it!
Debian was the city between the hills where everyone could come and have their fill and rely upon for pretty much everything. The city had it all, and then more. You live over on that hill over there? Sure, come visit us and you will be well received. You need some help? Give us a ring and we will come right over and see what we can do. You live on that other hill over there? Or in the valley beyond, no problem, our reach and willingness is far and wide.
Debian was the champion of most causes of the community, and a darling of all, and it wasn't picky, rather wanting to support all and everything than just some. That's what made Debian the distro of choice for those who wanted to make their own distro. Or the distro of guidance for what choices to make. Debian supports it? Then sure, it will probably be supported for all eternity. It was a point of stability and reliance, setting good and sound standards and reasoning them out.
Fedora and Ubuntu has nothing on what Debian was, and Debian is no longer what it was. We no longer have in our midst that which we used to have, and now more than ever need.
POSIX, "out the door", FOSS, "who cares", standards, "meh", bsd/debian, "no way", mobiles, "pfff", the list goes on and on. Debian used to support it all, every part of it, from different Kernels with debian, to all different kinds of GUI's and everything in between. They were a rock of support for each of those components. The real Debian of today, were it still alive (RIP), would support 5 different kernels, 20 arches (at least), 5 different init systems, 10 different userlands (of which the primary one would still be GNU), Xorg and Wayland (and probably Mir too), and all the desktops and gui's, and everything in between.
Sure, that's alot of work, but they used to do nearly all that before, and they managed. It was the go to community for people who wanted to do experimental things, amazing things, the impossible, or just the plain necessary. It was a great community and they did well and thrived. It was the gathering place and the natural first choice for all interested parties/people.
Today we struggle with a more and more divided community, actually it's quite the opposite in practice, in the name of business expedience and profit GNU/Linux is becoming overly standardized and morphing into a kind single unitarian system where you have less and less choices. POSIX is flying out the window too, and they all hate freedom and GNU, so surely that's the next thing they will replace (they are already trying, slowly.. btw..) and throw out.
All this his is because there is no-one like Debian, and nobody to fill the role. The old C guard is done, having been replaced by the snake pit kids and all their python stuff (that's a language play btw, at least in my language, but probably not English). Who is even at Debian anymore? Aside from Debian, the only super core we have left is the old graying C guard, but they don't have the energy to fight for us, and the cracks are starting to show there as well. They don't deserve the burden of this, they have done enough already, and btw, they are still going strong too. I don't blame them or the Kernel community or GNU or those kind of people for any of this, it's purely a Debian issue, and due to the role Debian had, it has a ring effect on the larger ecosystem, a kind of succulent void.
So, who would fork a distro in 2023 and say that Debian is the clear choice of base for such a "new" distro project? The questions is rather, is it a choice at all? The integrity of Debian anno 2023 seems like that of a jellyfish. I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer or the brightest expert, but before this very post, Debian has not even entered my mind for years and years, even probably a decade. And I used Debian for years back about 2004-2008, but it seems to have become a completely irrelevant distro in my mind, so much that I haven't given it any thought at all for so long. I know I'm not a measure of things and that it probably sounds harsh or overexhaggerated, but is it really?
Debian might still be in the vicinity for many, and it surely isn't irrelevant. But has it lost its place and even its way? Personally I think so, and I'm pretty sure at least some people would agree with that. So what is Debian nowadays anyways? Is it just becoming another distro? A kind of flavourless floater among other distroes that one can chose to use or ignore. If things continue inside Debian like now, they will become a champion of nobody and a gathering place for the few. They will keep dropping more and more of their unique projects, they will support less and less alternatives, they will no longer be a free software proponent, no longer care about POSIX. Why would anyone chose Debian over say Arch, Gentoo, Fedora or even Ubuntu (yes, Ubuntu) if Debian is just a narrow minded, narrow purpose distro? There are other contenders too that might be interesting to mention like NixOS/Guix. Why would anyone start with Debian in 2023 or 2025 or 2026? Is it even stable and reliable anymore, or is it a mess that is falling in on itself slowly but surely? With people leaving, projects falling apart and even what used to be the core principles and tenets being in danger. I don't know what is going on over there in lala land, but I'm living here in the real world, and things aren't looking too good. Perhaps I'm badly informed, lacking knowledge and understanding, but I'm also a 20+ year user of GNU/Linux distros, including Debian, and I take an interesting in these things, so I'm not completely blank either, it's not a puff out of nowhere I don't think. But what exactly is the supposed role Debian is suppose to play in the GNU/Linux distro ecosystem these days? Do they even know anymore?
Is Debian even a strong one among GNU/Linux distros anymore or are they just weaklings?