Contradiction (Score: 2, Interesting) by axsdenied@pipedot.org on 2014-09-08 14:24 (#2S5K) Interesting how more and more distros are adopting it but there is so much negativity and complaining wherever I look. Seems contradictory...Interesting read of the reasoning for the adoption by debian:https://wiki.debian.org/Debate/initsystem/systemd Re: Contradiction (Score: 1) by zafiro17@pipedot.org on 2014-09-08 19:06 (#2S5S) I modded you up because that's a great link - very informative. I notice though that the argument consists of, for the moment, people talking past each other. That is, I don't see much in Debian's position statement that refutes what the anti-systemd crowd is putting forth as their argument.Can't wait to see how this plays out. I confess I am for the most part more swayed by the anti-systemd crowd's position, but I like transparency and simplicity in a system, and systemd decreases both. Re: Contradiction (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on 2014-09-09 01:05 (#2S66) You're right, I expected (much) more from Debian. It reads more or less as "we like it, it's popular, so nyeah". Re: Contradiction (Score: 1) by axsdenied@pipedot.org on 2014-09-09 05:07 (#2S6B) Same thinking here. But it may be that they are "forced" into accepting it. For example GNOME 3.8 depends on systemd.It will be interesting to see if/how long Slackware/Gentoo/etc hold on from the adoption... Re: Contradiction (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on 2014-09-09 12:32 (#2S6R) This is purely guesswork, I don't read Debian mailing lists or whatever, but I think you're right in that they might be forced in some way.Many Linux distributions have depended on RedHat or Ubuntu for a long time. If you look at the "base system" source code including file utilities, kernel, various basic daemons, you will see that someone from RedHat or Ubuntu has worked on it or is maintaining it. These aren't "sexy" projects everybody would want to work on, so I guess it's hard to find a maintainer for "GNU rm" unless you pay.Now RedHat is bringing their agenda on the table. They aren't going to maintain login(1) anymore, because systemd supercedes it. If you are an anti-systemd Linux distributor, you have to maintain login(1) yourself. Why does an unmaintained piece of code cease to work, you may ask, but it's a completely different idiocy.Anyway, this is all well and doable until you get to more complicated and ever-changing components like udev. Gentoo people have their own udev fork not because they love to code device managers (I'm guessing), but they either fork it or accept systemd. These guys take the risk of chasing behind the Linux kernel team regarding the changes to the udev interface, but others -understandably- may not. Those who don't will switch to systemd sooner or later..Other dependencies are small potatoes compared to udev. udev manages all devices including the fixed drives and your PCI cards, most of the other daemons do stupid stuff like counting how many people are working on your computer, raising an alarm to all programs when you insert a USB stick etc. A Linux distributor could get away with a mostly-fake systemd package but not with a fake udevd. Regarding GNOME, you could run it without any senseless daemons or whatever. I've been doing so in an XFCE system which somehow makes use of GNOME daemons. I killed and -x'ed most gnome daemons and some systemd daemons. It surely complains a lot but it still works. Re: Contradiction (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on 2014-09-09 13:42 (#2S6W) These aren't "sexy" projects everybody would want to work on, so I guess it's hard to find a maintainer for "GNU rm" unless you pay.Bad example, given that GNU rm is part of the GNU project (as part of GNU binutils). As general rule, if something has "GNU" in its name, you'll find it at https://gnu.org.
Re: Contradiction (Score: 1) by zafiro17@pipedot.org on 2014-09-08 19:06 (#2S5S) I modded you up because that's a great link - very informative. I notice though that the argument consists of, for the moment, people talking past each other. That is, I don't see much in Debian's position statement that refutes what the anti-systemd crowd is putting forth as their argument.Can't wait to see how this plays out. I confess I am for the most part more swayed by the anti-systemd crowd's position, but I like transparency and simplicity in a system, and systemd decreases both. Re: Contradiction (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on 2014-09-09 01:05 (#2S66) You're right, I expected (much) more from Debian. It reads more or less as "we like it, it's popular, so nyeah". Re: Contradiction (Score: 1) by axsdenied@pipedot.org on 2014-09-09 05:07 (#2S6B) Same thinking here. But it may be that they are "forced" into accepting it. For example GNOME 3.8 depends on systemd.It will be interesting to see if/how long Slackware/Gentoo/etc hold on from the adoption... Re: Contradiction (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on 2014-09-09 12:32 (#2S6R) This is purely guesswork, I don't read Debian mailing lists or whatever, but I think you're right in that they might be forced in some way.Many Linux distributions have depended on RedHat or Ubuntu for a long time. If you look at the "base system" source code including file utilities, kernel, various basic daemons, you will see that someone from RedHat or Ubuntu has worked on it or is maintaining it. These aren't "sexy" projects everybody would want to work on, so I guess it's hard to find a maintainer for "GNU rm" unless you pay.Now RedHat is bringing their agenda on the table. They aren't going to maintain login(1) anymore, because systemd supercedes it. If you are an anti-systemd Linux distributor, you have to maintain login(1) yourself. Why does an unmaintained piece of code cease to work, you may ask, but it's a completely different idiocy.Anyway, this is all well and doable until you get to more complicated and ever-changing components like udev. Gentoo people have their own udev fork not because they love to code device managers (I'm guessing), but they either fork it or accept systemd. These guys take the risk of chasing behind the Linux kernel team regarding the changes to the udev interface, but others -understandably- may not. Those who don't will switch to systemd sooner or later..Other dependencies are small potatoes compared to udev. udev manages all devices including the fixed drives and your PCI cards, most of the other daemons do stupid stuff like counting how many people are working on your computer, raising an alarm to all programs when you insert a USB stick etc. A Linux distributor could get away with a mostly-fake systemd package but not with a fake udevd. Regarding GNOME, you could run it without any senseless daemons or whatever. I've been doing so in an XFCE system which somehow makes use of GNOME daemons. I killed and -x'ed most gnome daemons and some systemd daemons. It surely complains a lot but it still works. Re: Contradiction (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on 2014-09-09 13:42 (#2S6W) These aren't "sexy" projects everybody would want to work on, so I guess it's hard to find a maintainer for "GNU rm" unless you pay.Bad example, given that GNU rm is part of the GNU project (as part of GNU binutils). As general rule, if something has "GNU" in its name, you'll find it at https://gnu.org.
Re: Contradiction (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on 2014-09-09 01:05 (#2S66) You're right, I expected (much) more from Debian. It reads more or less as "we like it, it's popular, so nyeah". Re: Contradiction (Score: 1) by axsdenied@pipedot.org on 2014-09-09 05:07 (#2S6B) Same thinking here. But it may be that they are "forced" into accepting it. For example GNOME 3.8 depends on systemd.It will be interesting to see if/how long Slackware/Gentoo/etc hold on from the adoption... Re: Contradiction (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on 2014-09-09 12:32 (#2S6R) This is purely guesswork, I don't read Debian mailing lists or whatever, but I think you're right in that they might be forced in some way.Many Linux distributions have depended on RedHat or Ubuntu for a long time. If you look at the "base system" source code including file utilities, kernel, various basic daemons, you will see that someone from RedHat or Ubuntu has worked on it or is maintaining it. These aren't "sexy" projects everybody would want to work on, so I guess it's hard to find a maintainer for "GNU rm" unless you pay.Now RedHat is bringing their agenda on the table. They aren't going to maintain login(1) anymore, because systemd supercedes it. If you are an anti-systemd Linux distributor, you have to maintain login(1) yourself. Why does an unmaintained piece of code cease to work, you may ask, but it's a completely different idiocy.Anyway, this is all well and doable until you get to more complicated and ever-changing components like udev. Gentoo people have their own udev fork not because they love to code device managers (I'm guessing), but they either fork it or accept systemd. These guys take the risk of chasing behind the Linux kernel team regarding the changes to the udev interface, but others -understandably- may not. Those who don't will switch to systemd sooner or later..Other dependencies are small potatoes compared to udev. udev manages all devices including the fixed drives and your PCI cards, most of the other daemons do stupid stuff like counting how many people are working on your computer, raising an alarm to all programs when you insert a USB stick etc. A Linux distributor could get away with a mostly-fake systemd package but not with a fake udevd. Regarding GNOME, you could run it without any senseless daemons or whatever. I've been doing so in an XFCE system which somehow makes use of GNOME daemons. I killed and -x'ed most gnome daemons and some systemd daemons. It surely complains a lot but it still works. Re: Contradiction (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on 2014-09-09 13:42 (#2S6W) These aren't "sexy" projects everybody would want to work on, so I guess it's hard to find a maintainer for "GNU rm" unless you pay.Bad example, given that GNU rm is part of the GNU project (as part of GNU binutils). As general rule, if something has "GNU" in its name, you'll find it at https://gnu.org.
Re: Contradiction (Score: 1) by axsdenied@pipedot.org on 2014-09-09 05:07 (#2S6B) Same thinking here. But it may be that they are "forced" into accepting it. For example GNOME 3.8 depends on systemd.It will be interesting to see if/how long Slackware/Gentoo/etc hold on from the adoption... Re: Contradiction (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on 2014-09-09 12:32 (#2S6R) This is purely guesswork, I don't read Debian mailing lists or whatever, but I think you're right in that they might be forced in some way.Many Linux distributions have depended on RedHat or Ubuntu for a long time. If you look at the "base system" source code including file utilities, kernel, various basic daemons, you will see that someone from RedHat or Ubuntu has worked on it or is maintaining it. These aren't "sexy" projects everybody would want to work on, so I guess it's hard to find a maintainer for "GNU rm" unless you pay.Now RedHat is bringing their agenda on the table. They aren't going to maintain login(1) anymore, because systemd supercedes it. If you are an anti-systemd Linux distributor, you have to maintain login(1) yourself. Why does an unmaintained piece of code cease to work, you may ask, but it's a completely different idiocy.Anyway, this is all well and doable until you get to more complicated and ever-changing components like udev. Gentoo people have their own udev fork not because they love to code device managers (I'm guessing), but they either fork it or accept systemd. These guys take the risk of chasing behind the Linux kernel team regarding the changes to the udev interface, but others -understandably- may not. Those who don't will switch to systemd sooner or later..Other dependencies are small potatoes compared to udev. udev manages all devices including the fixed drives and your PCI cards, most of the other daemons do stupid stuff like counting how many people are working on your computer, raising an alarm to all programs when you insert a USB stick etc. A Linux distributor could get away with a mostly-fake systemd package but not with a fake udevd. Regarding GNOME, you could run it without any senseless daemons or whatever. I've been doing so in an XFCE system which somehow makes use of GNOME daemons. I killed and -x'ed most gnome daemons and some systemd daemons. It surely complains a lot but it still works. Re: Contradiction (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on 2014-09-09 13:42 (#2S6W) These aren't "sexy" projects everybody would want to work on, so I guess it's hard to find a maintainer for "GNU rm" unless you pay.Bad example, given that GNU rm is part of the GNU project (as part of GNU binutils). As general rule, if something has "GNU" in its name, you'll find it at https://gnu.org.
Re: Contradiction (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on 2014-09-09 12:32 (#2S6R) This is purely guesswork, I don't read Debian mailing lists or whatever, but I think you're right in that they might be forced in some way.Many Linux distributions have depended on RedHat or Ubuntu for a long time. If you look at the "base system" source code including file utilities, kernel, various basic daemons, you will see that someone from RedHat or Ubuntu has worked on it or is maintaining it. These aren't "sexy" projects everybody would want to work on, so I guess it's hard to find a maintainer for "GNU rm" unless you pay.Now RedHat is bringing their agenda on the table. They aren't going to maintain login(1) anymore, because systemd supercedes it. If you are an anti-systemd Linux distributor, you have to maintain login(1) yourself. Why does an unmaintained piece of code cease to work, you may ask, but it's a completely different idiocy.Anyway, this is all well and doable until you get to more complicated and ever-changing components like udev. Gentoo people have their own udev fork not because they love to code device managers (I'm guessing), but they either fork it or accept systemd. These guys take the risk of chasing behind the Linux kernel team regarding the changes to the udev interface, but others -understandably- may not. Those who don't will switch to systemd sooner or later..Other dependencies are small potatoes compared to udev. udev manages all devices including the fixed drives and your PCI cards, most of the other daemons do stupid stuff like counting how many people are working on your computer, raising an alarm to all programs when you insert a USB stick etc. A Linux distributor could get away with a mostly-fake systemd package but not with a fake udevd. Regarding GNOME, you could run it without any senseless daemons or whatever. I've been doing so in an XFCE system which somehow makes use of GNOME daemons. I killed and -x'ed most gnome daemons and some systemd daemons. It surely complains a lot but it still works. Re: Contradiction (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on 2014-09-09 13:42 (#2S6W) These aren't "sexy" projects everybody would want to work on, so I guess it's hard to find a maintainer for "GNU rm" unless you pay.Bad example, given that GNU rm is part of the GNU project (as part of GNU binutils). As general rule, if something has "GNU" in its name, you'll find it at https://gnu.org.
Re: Contradiction (Score: 0) by Anonymous Coward on 2014-09-09 13:42 (#2S6W) These aren't "sexy" projects everybody would want to work on, so I guess it's hard to find a maintainer for "GNU rm" unless you pay.Bad example, given that GNU rm is part of the GNU project (as part of GNU binutils). As general rule, if something has "GNU" in its name, you'll find it at https://gnu.org.