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Mozilla foundation's new CEO causes concern due to anti-gay-marriage views

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Disagreement (Score: 3, Insightful)

by jack@pipedot.org on 2014-04-02 10:07 (#Y1)

I'm sure the CEO of almost every company has some viewpoint I disagree with vehemently.

I will now go live in the bush as a hermit.

Re: Disagreement (Score: 1)

by kerrany@pipedot.org on 2014-04-02 13:11 (#Y8)

Where do you think the line ought to be? Somewhere past "an unpleasant opinion" I suppose? What about "an unpleasant opinion backed with money"? Don't forget, the guy's not just a dick, he's a dick who puts his money where his mouth is. (There's a really terrible but hilarious dirty joke to be made there...)

Or are you saying that there is no line, that you'll buy/use/promote anything from anybody if it's something you want or need?

Or... maybe I'm misunderstanding. Maybe you're saying you'd just rather not hear about this stuff, so you don't have to make the choice, even by inaction?

Re: Disagreement (Score: 1)

by billshooterofbul@pipedot.org on 2014-04-02 14:32 (#YC)

There are a lot of people who do put money behind causes I disagree with that I don't know about due to campaign finance rules and crazy 501 non-for profits.
The stupidest thing in my opinion is to not use a free software product because of who is the ceo of the foundation behind it. Its free software. Using it doesn't require me to give any money to them. Now, if I were donating money to mozilla, or a developer of their products, it would be a different issue. But using free software? That's just odd. The whole point of free software is to not put any restriction son the use of the free software. Especially a web browser. You're free to use it to learn about causes the ceo of mozilla disagrees with, and anything else you want. Users shouldn't be discriminated against or harassed in any way. Thats BS.

I'm more in line with the parent of this thread, Its really annoying when people impose their value systems on you and assume that you agree with them and additionally assume you agree with their action plan to further their goals. I rarely agree with people on these things, and am offended with the notion that I must believe *exactly* as they do and do *exactly* what they want me to do.

Re: Disagreement (Score: 1)

by kerrany@pipedot.org on 2014-04-02 15:58 (#YF)

Heh, I think the point was that by using the software, you appear to be supporting the beliefs of the Mozilla foundation and, by extension, its CEO. I support free software - but it is the antithesis of discrimination. The guy who runs Mozilla supports discrimination. That's a headscratcher for me - presumably they chose him because he epitomizes their views, and that's disturbing. Personally, I think they made a mistake. The guys at the end of this thread have it right - this could hurt Mozilla's reputation, especially since people are making a moderate fuss about it.

Mind if I restate your points, as I read them? This is what it sounds like you're saying, as far as I can tell:

1. I know there are assholes out there and I don't know who they are, but some of them probably make things I use. I might object to paying them money for stuff if I knew who they were.

2. The software's free, so it doesn't matter what the CEO thinks - because using it isn't the same as giving them money. (How does the Mozilla foundation support itself? Why do they try to get users, if users are worthless?)

3. If something is free, it should be used without restraint. (Not restrictions - restrictions are things that limit HOW you can use the software, not WHETHER you should use the software. Restraint is the thing that makes you go, "Hey wait a minute here..." when something like this comes up.) To rephrase, it sounds like you mean: free as in beer means free as in morals - if the KKK started giving out free cupcakes, it'd be OK to take one.

4. That last paragraph reads like "Even asking this question is rude. I might think it's OK to discriminate against gay people, but I can't say that because people would get offended and I'd look like a dick. Making me have to hide that opinion is mean." I don't think you meant it that way, but the air of discomfort behind it is readable.

I want to point out that the question I was trying to ask - will this harm Mozilla? Is this something we should be worrying about and trying to put a halt to? Is this bad for the community? - was not built on the assumption that you supported one viewpoint or the other beyond the basic "controversy bad, Firefox good". Yeah, personally, I'm all for equal rights, and I love Firefox and other free software, but I do not expect you to share those opinions. I do expect you to have an opinion (cuz everyone does) and - if you choose to express it - to express it in a way that makes some sense, but aside from that? Who gives a damn.

OK, sure, maybe this is a trivial topic. People are dying in thousands of unpleasant ways every day; a cure for cancer still hasn't manifested; there was a giant friggin' earthquake in Chile yesterday. But... this is news for nerds, not news for people concerned only with the gravest of SRS BSNSS - and honestly, I do think this will do Firefox's (and Mozilla's) reputation some harm. It's already done some harm to it and the harm is ongoing.

Re: Disagreement (Score: 0)

by hombre@pipedot.org on 2014-04-02 22:54 (#YK)

Right, because someone who disagrees with you is discriminating. While the use of the word is technically correct, you mean it as a pejorative, and deserve to get kicked in the genitals.

I'm sorry, but your opening sentence is so laughably bad it's really hard to take seriously. You really believe that every position can be filled with someone who espouses every belief system that you do? And that everyone else will share those beliefs with you? Seriously? Because that's what you're saying.

You should probably stop looking to corporations to tune your moral compass.

Re: Disagreement (Score: 1, Insightful)

by kerrany@pipedot.org on 2014-04-03 21:42 (#YZ)

Eh? Are you smokin' something? Here, let's crack that first line open:

Opinion A) People who love eachother should be able to get married.
Opinion B) People who love eachother should be able to get married - EXCEPT FOR GAY PEOPLE.

Opinion A and opinion B disagree! That does not make either of them discriminatory. However, opinion B... is discrimination. I mean... textbook:

discrimination - dis·crim·i·na·tion [dih-skrim-uh-ney-shuhn]
noun
1. an act or instance of discriminating, or of making a distinction.
2. treatment or consideration of, or making a distinction in favor of or against, a person or thing based on the group, class, or category to which that person or thing belongs rather than on individual merit: racial and religious intolerance and discrimination.
3. the power of making fine distinctions; discriminating judgment: She chose the colors with great discrimination.
4. Archaic. something that serves to differentiate.

Highlighted the definition that's relevant to human beings for you, in case you missed it in grammar class.

Sure, anyone who holds Opinion B is discriminating, and it is a pejorative, because there's just no way that discrimination is good here. However, you're fucking up sets there: just because someone disagrees with me by holding Opinion C, not expressed above, does NOT mean they are discriminating and are thus dicks - I'd have to see Opinion C expressed in a fashion that didn't make it look like they were trying to treat a subgroup of humans differently than others.

Such opinions do exist - you could claim that the institution of marriage is baseless and that people who love eachother should instead perform ritual suicide, and as long as you argued it for ALL of those people, you would not be discriminating in the fashion described above. However, you completely failed to express such an opinion. Therefore I have not insulted you. Any insult you perceive is imagined in your own mind. You feel insulted - because... you hold Opinion C? Or maybe B? And really don't want to spend the time laying it out, but by golly you're gonna stand up to that internet bastard who said you were discriminatin'!

But hey, this site needs more discussion and debate, so I'll take you somewhat seriously and read the rest of your post too! :D

Since you asked: I believe that the leaders of every technological, spiritual, and social entity I support should agree with me, yes, and if they do not, they should be able to coherently express why they think I am wrong. I am actively policing the things I support and participate in, for example, free software projects, to make sure that they do not suddenly espouse beliefs like "Kill all Canadians" and "Oppress the third world". Don't you do the same?

You vote, don't you? If you walked into a bar and the sign over the back said, "No purple people at the bar!" and you were purple, would you patronize the place? Oh, and hey, while you were leaving, and saw another purple person coming in, you might say, "Hey, don't go in there, the owner's a bigot." Right? I mean... human behavior: see something wrong, say something. You might even, if you were particularly ballsy, ignore the bouncer and go up to the bartender and call him out. This would be the equivalent, for me, of calling that guy out.

Fortunately, it's not quite that serious (though people are sure acting like it is, considering the way they flail when challenged). The guy made a donation a few years ago. I want to know what the hell he meant by it and how he can still espouse the view (if he does). He has comments disabled and I don't have his email address. Making a fuss seems like a good way to get to him and get some info - or if not, to get to the people who hired him, and get them to interrogate him on something they may not have considered when they stuck him up for the job.

You'll note that nobody's in front of his house with pitchforks and torches, trying to deprive him of life and limb. No one's tried to make HIS marriage illegal. I have a nice, strong moral compass. I'm exercising it. It's fun, you should try it!

Or you could make stupid cracks about kicking people in the delicates. No need to elevate the discussion, we'll be fine down here in the mud, I'm sure.

Re: Disagreement (Score: 2, Insightful)

by hombre@pipedot.org on 2014-04-04 00:11 (#Z3)

You should be modded flamebait and troll because you were, as evidenced by personal attacks. I said the comment was stupid, which it was. You, however, attacked me. There's a troll here, and it wasn't me.

The funny thing is, I don't give a rip who dates who. It's none of my business. I would vote against laws putting limits on it. My problem is with people like you who feel that yours is the only valid opinion and shout down anyone who disagrees with you. Notice that you proved my point when you modded me down. That's not a debate and your position is not legitimate.

It's nice if you can surround yourself with people who completely share your views and only patronize businesses that only share your views. In the real world, this isn't possible because, as someone else kindly pointed out, the world is not black and white.

Why should I even try to be reasoned with you? Go back and read what you wrote. Read it again.

Sarcasm over "elevating the discussion." Sarcasm isn't a good way to make your point. But, frankly, people who insist on shouting down others for having a differing opinion are the ones who need to be punished.

Rhetoric over "pitchforks and torches." BTW, that's figuratively what you people did. You raised a fit until someone was forced to resign, which definitely has an impact on his life and most likely will effect his job prospects. And you seem to feel justified for doing so because he doesn't agree with you on marriage. I don't agree with him either, but he's entitled to be an ass if he wants to. Personally, I'd rather have my corporate head competent enough to do his job.

The crack on grammar doesn't even warrant a response.

I've said this before, I'll say it again. Get your nose out of everyone else's business and worry about yourself. You'll be a lot happier.

Re: Disagreement (Score: 1)

by kerrany@pipedot.org on 2014-04-04 13:09 (#Z9)

Dude, I'm happy. I have a great life. Doesn't mean I can't speak up for what I feel is right. If that's trolling, then call me a troll. I'll own it.

If you have a look at Mozilla's post on the matter, you'll see that Mozilla pretty much went, "We made a mistake about that guy." The man stepped down as CEO. That doesn't mean he's not still economically doing okay. (In my experience, guys who get nominated as CEO of a major company don't live paycheck to paycheck like the rest of us.) It means he's not right to lead an inclusive, open, and diverse Mozilla. I'd be fine with him in a tech job where he doesn't work managing other people who might be gay. Being a bigot doesn't make you unemployable. It makes you "not management material". (Mind you, I wouldn't work with him in the workplace if he couldn't behave in day-to-day interactions, but that's called "being rude", not "being a bigot".)

Incidentally, I wouldn't have minded if Mr. Eich had stepped up and explained why he either doesn't feel that way anymore, or still feels that way but it's honestly not discriminatory. If you check out his post on the matter, he did not do that. He instead chose to continue holding on to whatever he believes (he's never really articulated it in public) and to step down. I'd argue that shows principles, albeit the kind that involve shooting oneself in the foot. I can respect those, even if I can't respect the beliefs which prompted them, so the whole matter is something of a wash respect-wise.

Yeah, I still feel justified for attacking a CEO verbally over his beliefs. He appears to think that a portion of the population deserves less happiness than another portion of the population. That's not really defensible. I'm sure there are still racists out there and that some of them run corporations, and if I knew who they were, I'd attack them verbally too, yes, in the hopes that they'd step down. I think basic human kindness is a mark of competence. If you can't pull that off, if you can't at least keep your intolerances under your hat, you aren't good enough to be CEO.

My nose is firmly in my business here, friend. I love Firefox. I love gay people. That guy was mucking in my business by becoming CEO of Mozilla while being anti-gay. He could've declined the position. He could've articulated something, anything that wasn't "I still feel this way but it's fine, no really, cuz I promise I won't screw up." He did not show the competence to run Mozilla. I'm happy he stepped down, both for Firefox and for gay people.

Finally:
troll trōl/
verb
gerund or present participle: trolling
1. fish by trailing a baited line along behind a boat. "we trolled for mackerel"; carefully and systematically search an area for something. "a group of companies trolling for partnership opportunities"
2. informal - submit a deliberately provocative posting to an online message board with the aim of inciting an angry response. "if people are obviously trolling then I'll delete your posts and do my best to ban you"
3. sing (something) in a happy and carefree way. "troll the ancient Yuletide carol"
4. Brit. walk; stroll. "we all trolled into town"

Once again with the highlight of the appropriate definition.

My purpose in posting this story was not to elicit an angry response. It was to elicit a reasoned, intelligent debate concerning whether or not this guy was actually good for Mozilla. I'm the angry one here. I'm the one feeding the trolls. I'm doing it because I think Pipedot needs more chatter, and because I really do feel passionately about this sort of thing. Sorry, this fails your definition. You, on the other hand... you really do seem like you'd just like to have some anger spilled your way. Why is that?

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2014-04-06 03:24 Normal 0 reziac@pipedot.org

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