Osborne accuses Labour of wanting to run a deficit forever as MPs pass fiscal charter with majority of 62 - Politics live
Rolling coverage of all the day's political developments as they happen, including David Cameron and Jeremy Corbyn at PMQs, and MPs debating the fiscal responsibility charter
- McDonnell says Labour MPs won't rebel over fiscal charter
- My PMQs verdict
- PMQs - Verdict from the Twitter commentariat
- Lunchtime summary
- Afternoon summary
9.04pm BST
Sky News' Faisal Islam thinks around 15 to 20 Labour MPs may have abstained.
Fiscal Charter passed by 320 to 258: at a guess, minus SNP and pairings.. so around 200 Labour MPs voted for it -estimate: 15-20 abstentions
8.59pm BST
MPs have voted for the fiscal charter by 320 votes to 258 - a majority of 62.
8.52pm BST
It was a lively exchange, but probably less scintillating and and defining than some people expected. George Osborne put in a very accomplished performance, and he used his speech to hammer home his claim that Labour is economically irresponsible. But it was a performance that largely glossed over the multiple serious objections to the charter for budget responsibility. (See 7.08pm.) John McDonnell was far less accomplished, and Tory MPs laughed loudly when he began by candidly admitting that he had performed a clear U-turn on this. But, once, he got going, McDonnell held is own and, for someone who has never spoken from the despatch box in a Commons career lasting almost 20 years, he was surprisingly assured. What did failed to do, though, was comprehensively reset the argument about economic policy. He argued that Labour was not to blame for the crash, and he set out an alternative approach to deficit reduction, incorporating flexibility to invest, modest redistribution, closing corporate tax loopholes and more focus on growing the economy. But it was very hard to identify anything in this that had not been said by Ed Miliband and Ed Balls.
Here are the key news points.
The complete chaos and confusion and incredibility of Labour's economic policy is more eloquently expressed by Labour members of parliament than by any of my colleagues. To call the whole episode a shambles is an understatement, like saying the charge of the light brigade did not achieve all of its objectives.
The serious point is this; in my experience, shadow chancellors come and go, but what is permanent is the economic approach that the Labour party committing itself to tonight. They are becoming the permanent party of fiscal irresponsibility, the party of never-ending borrowing, the party that would run a deficit forever, a Labour party that is a standing threat to the economic security of the working people of this country.
It is no wonder [the charter] has been seen as one of those puerile political traps the chancellor likes to set. Vote against the charter and you are a deficit denier. Vote for it, and for the next five years he will claim you have signed up to support every one of his cuts in public services and in benefits.
What happened under the last government was that the chancellor and his regulatory authorities allowed, first the dotcom bubble, and then the crazy credit boom. That meant tax revenues temporarily soared to astonishing levels. The then Labour government carried on running a deficit on top of those tax revenues, and then the revenues collapsed and left us with the worst annual deficit in the G20. The last government was complicit in the consequences of 2010.
We're getting to the crux of this debate, which is that this fiscal charter is intellectually moronic. It essentially commits this House to never borrowing to invest, even when the cost/benefit analysis of that investment is such that the country would benefit greatly. And that is why it has not one serious economist backing it, other than the self-styled experts on the government benches.
8.16pm BST
In the Commons Stewart Hosie, the SNP's Treasury spokesman, is speaking. John McDonnell intervenes, to ask him to accept that the SNP's policy now is the one that Labour advocated six months ago. Hosie says that the SNP voted against the fiscal charter (a different version) when MPs debated it in January; but Labour supported it.
8.07pm BST
Here is one of the key quotes from George Osborne. He accused Labour of wanting to run a deficit forever.
The people who oppose this charter never want a surplus. They want to run a deficit forever, they never want Britain to be earning more than it spends. I'm setting a date, 2019, years from now at the end of this decade, nine years after the end of the recession - that is the date we are voting on. The truth is they want to borrow forever. They want to run a deficit forever. They believe our debts should rise and rise, not ever come down. And they just don't have the courage to admit it to the British people."
The truth is running a deficit forever is not socialist compassion it is economic cruelty and Britain wants no more of it.
8.03pm BST
McDonnell says Labour will tackle the deficit.
But it will not do it on the back of the poor and middle earners.
7.57pm BST
McDonnell says the worst false economy is the failure to invest.
Britain is ranked low in terms of infrastructure.
7.55pm BST
Labour's Jonathan Reynolds says this fiscal charter is "moronic'. It would stop the government borrowing to invest. That is why no sensible economist backs it.
McDonnell says he could not have put that better himself.
7.53pm BST
McDonnell says the original fiscal reform act in 2009 was supposed to bolster the Labour government's economic credibility. Osborne described it a gimmick. But he then realised charter mandates could be useful.
He quotes prominent economists saying the fiscal charter has no economic value.
7.50pm BST
Jacob Rees-Mogg, a Conservative, says McDonnell says he wants to eliminate the deficit. But he opposes all cuts. So how could that happen?
McDonnell says he will get to that in his speech.
7.46pm BST
McDonnell says he cannot support the government's policies on matters like the bedroom tax, or disability cuts.
He does not want Labour associated with these plans in any way.
7.44pm BST
McDonnell says the charter is a "puerile political trap". Vote against it, and you are a deficit denier. Vote for it, and you are backing all cuts, he says.
He says originally he wanted to use today's debate for knockabout. He wanted to out-Osborne Osborne.
7.41pm BST
John McDonnell, the shadow chancellor, starts saying he wants to deal with his U-turn. He said he would back it, and now he is saying vote against.
Tory MPs laugh.
7.39pm BST
Osborne says he has been chancellor and shadow chancellor for 10 years. He could read out comments attacking McDonnell's U-turn. But the criticism from Labour MPs is more serious. It is like Labour saying the charge of the light brigade did not meet all its objectives.
Labour is losing its economic credibility, he says.
7.36pm BST
Osborne says some people argue that government can just tell the Bank of England to print money. Jeremy Corbyn backs that idea. But no one has seriously proposed that idea in this country for decades, he says. It would lead to rising prices, savings wiped out, and jobs lost. It is a very old and very dangerous idea, he says.
Yvette Cooper, the former chief secretary to the Treasury, said it was "bad economics", Osborne says. He also quotes Jack Straw saying it would be the approach of Venezuala and the Weimar Republic.
7.33pm BST
Caroline Lucas, the Green MP, says borrowing to invest can stabilise the economy, increase jobs and increase tax revenues.
Osborne says that is an argument for continual borrowing. When would she stop borrowing?
7.30pm BST
Osborne say some argue fiscal rules are meaningless.
But he disagrees, he says. Governments need rules.
7.28pm BST
Osborne says the fiscal charter is a simple proposal to make the government accountable.
7.28pm BST
Osborne says the trouble with people who say now is a good time to borrow is that they say it is always a good time to borrow. If the economy is doing badly, they say you need to borrow. If it is doing well, they say you can afford to borrow.
7.27pm BST
Osborne says the Tories are now "the true party of labour".
7.27pm BST
Osborne says his opponents never want the government to run a surplus.
Labour MPs should "nonsense". Osborne says, if that is the case, they should say when they will run a surplus.
7.22pm BST
George Osborne says he is aiming for a budget surplus in 2019.
If the government cannot run a surplus nine years after the recession, when will it do so? Never, he replies.
7.19pm BST
Chris Leslie, the former shadow chancellor, says Osborne should remember the need for government to be able to take measures to help the poor.
Osborne says running a surplus does help the poor. It is the poor who lose most when the economy crashes, he says.
7.18pm BST
George Osborne, the chancellor, is opening the debate.
He says the question is very simple: Will Britain live within its means, and pay its debts? Or will it be profligate again? Will we consign Britain to a future of high debts? No, he says. He will put economic security first.
7.14pm BST
The debate on the charter of budget responsibility is about to start.
7.08pm BST
Here's a charter of budget responsibility (or fiscal charter) reading list, as promised much earlier in the day.
Our polling, published in Prospect's November issue, finds that Osborne has not won the fiscal debate as fully as he might assume and that several of Labour's economic policies have a clear and in some cases very substantial approval rating among voters.
In some cases, the polling revealed startling levels of popular support for Labour policies, for example the idea of capping rents in the private sector. Our YouGov/Prospect polls found that 74 per cent of people supported this idea, while only 17 per cent are opposed. There are other similarly arresting poll findings, which will be published in full by Prospect on Thursday.
It is generally accepted Britain's debt burden needs to fall, so that future generations do not have to pay for today's spending and, in the event of another crisis, the country is not already borrowed to the hilt and has the scope to increase borrowing in response.
But to what level debt needs to be reduced, and how quickly that should happen, is controversial. A large number of economists think a slower pace would not be dangerous and may have benefits. A vocal group argue that the focus on deficit reduction during the last parliament has severely hurt growth.
When the Chancellor first mooted the idea of the Charter in June - ahead of his Mansion House speech - we were told that he intended to outlaw budget deficits by legislation. In fact the Mansion House speech made no mention of legislation. Instead Osborne referred opaquely to a "a strong new fiscal framework to entrench this permanent commitment to that surplus" which he argued, will enable "our nation to entrench a new settlement "" (my emphasis).
It's an idea that is older than Lord Palmerston's Victorian Commission for the Reduction of the National Debt convened 150 years ago!
The simple fact is that as the economy grows, and as the volume of savings within it grows, and as the demand for secure homes for such savings increases, particularly with an ageing population, there is an increased demand for government debt. All of these situations exist at present. The only way in which this demand for government debt can be met is by running deficits or by borrowing to invest through a National Investment Bank. To deny people the gilts that they want at this point in time would be to undermine the stability of the UK savings and investment market. If that is what George Osborne is planning to do then he should be explicit about it and say why he thinks that is a good thing.
nobody to this point has been able to show me any comment from a serious economist supporting @George_Osborne fiscal charter stunt
As far as I can tell the Tories don't have a single credible economist supporting their ridiculous fiscal charter stunt - more ideology
6.56pm BST
John McDonnell, the shadow chancellor, has posted a preview of what is going to say in tonight's debate on YouTube.
6.56pm BST
This is from Sky's Faisal Islam.
One Labour MP minded to abstain just told me would now vote against fiscal charter after PM's appeal for Labour rebels at PMQs
6.44pm BST
This is from HuffingtonPost's Owen Bennett.
Rumours round the bars in parliament is around 20 abstentions from labour on the budget charter vote tonight.
6.39pm BST
According to the Spectator's James Forsyth, tonight's fiscal charter debate could get a bit rowdy.
Tory MPs were encouraged to pipe down for Corbyn at PMQs today, but they've been encouraged to give John McDonnell the treatment tonight
6.18pm BST
@AndrewSparrow not true. What is being asked for won't delay 2017 implementation. Govt is attempting to defend a shoddily drafted Bill
In the North East of England it seems as though you are imposing a mayor on the leaders and the feeling in the North East is that they don't want the Geordie Boris. If it is all about democracy and sharing democracy why are you imposing the mayor on us?
5.51pm BST
The government has been defeated in the House of Lords this afternoon over the childcare bill. The Press Association has the details.
The government has suffered a defeat in the Lords over its plan to double the amount of free childcare for parents of three and four-year-olds.
Labour and Liberal Democrat peers voted 222 to 209, majority 13, for the change not to come into force until a full analysis of funding the policy has been carried out.
@AndrewSparrow not true. What is being asked for won't delay 2017 implementation. Govt is attempting to defend a shoddily drafted Bill
5.48pm BST
The Jeremy Corbyn campaign have tweeted five reasons why the fiscal charter should be opposed.
5 things you should know about @George_Osborne's fiscal charter & why @UKLabour will be voting against it. pic.twitter.com/fd8IEWCxbS
5.46pm BST
In an interview with the New Statesman Maria Eagle, the shadow defence secretary, has said that Labour's defence review will look at whether or not the party should continue to back Trident "with a completely open mind". She said:
It's a genuine [defence] review and so we'll be looking at it on the basis of facts and figures with a completely open mind . . . I'm not ruling it out [if the Labour party decides to endorse unilateral disarmament].
I think at a time when you've got austerity and big cuts in public expenditure it's reasonable for people to ask whether or not the money that we're spending on defence generally and on a successor submarine, in particular, is properly spent.
4.51pm BST
Caroline Lucas, the Green MP, has put out a statement explaining why she will be voting against the charter for budget responsibility. She said:
This charter is a massive and reckless gamble with our economy. These plans will either crash the economy now by sucking away demand, or crash it later by relying on dangerous levels of private debt to keep demand growing. The sad fact is that this economic illiteracy will lead to further cuts and privatisation - harming communities up and down the country.
4.48pm BST
The Scotland bill will be amended to give Scotland control over abortion policy, David Mundell, the Scottish secretary, has told MPs on the Scottish affairs committee.
The Scottish Labour party has criticised the decision. This is from Jenny Marra, its equalities spokesperson.
The secretary of state has taken this decision behind closed doors without any consultation with women's groups across Scotland. The Smith Commission promised a process to consider this, but that seems to have only meant a process that involved ministers of the UK and Scottish governments, and not women across Scotland.
Scottish Labour firmly believes that the safest way to protect the current legal framework around abortion is for it to remain at UK level where there is a strong consensus around the current time limits.
4.15pm BST
Labour's new high-powered economic advisory committee has not met yet, one of its members has confirmed. Ann Pettifor, director of Policy Research in Macroeconomics (Prime), told the World at One:
It is for John McDonnell to convene a meeting and he has not done so so far. Clearly they have a million things on their plates - it is all pretty intense and I am therefore not surprised that a formal meeting with a bunch of advisers has not been set up, but I do hope it will be soon. We have written and asked that it will happen soon.
I think it is absolutely the right decision, I only wish he'd come to it earlier. Clearly what John McDonnell was doing was thinking about the politics of it. It does sound to me to have been pretty messy. Clearly it is a new opposition, they have been in a muddle, but thank goodness they have made the right decision.
3.51pm BST
The leader of the Fire Brigades Union has accused some Labour MPs of trying to "put the knife in" to Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnell following this week's fractious Parliamentary party meeting.
Matt Wrack, the union's general secretary, said that parliamentarians who have attacked the party's leader and shadow chancellor should "shut up" and "wind their necks in" at a meeting of union activists in parliament.
I don't want to pry into the business of the parliamentary Labour party too much, but people may have seen the press reports of what went on in the Parliamentary Labour party this week and the attacks that were made on the Corbyn leadership.
On behalf of the executive council, and I hope on behalf of everyone, I would say to those people who are trying to put the knife into Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnell they need to wind their necks in and shut up and abide by the democratic decision of Labour party members, affiliated trade unionists and supporters and also in non-affiliated trade unions like us, like PCS, like the RMT. John and Jeremy have stood by those unions through thick and thin.
3.45pm BST
This is from the BBC's Laura Kuenssberg.
Sounds like @labourwhips working hard this afternoon to minimise number of abstentions on fiscal charter and shore up McDonnell position
3.38pm BST
The Labour MP Chris Evans has said he will abstain in the vote on the charter for budget responsibility tonight, instead of following the party line and backing it. He explained:
It is my view that Labour should support a budget surplus in principle but ensure that certain tests are passed. Are the NHS, vital public services and the national security safe? Are the vulnerable and poorest protected? Are we taking the right action to support people fulfil their ambitions?
Labour should be setting these tests and extracting concessions from the Government. This would be acting as a sensible, mature and responsible opposition and would be an effective start to the fightback. We cannot achieve this with inconsistent policy positions.
#pmqs I'll be abstaining tonight. It's a pantomime proposition. Parliament at its most pointless.
3.31pm BST
In his letter to Labour MPs earlier this week explaining why the party would be voting against the charter for budget responsibility, John McDonnell, the shadow chancellor, said the party would promote its own "fairer alternative" tonight. There was speculation that he might release an alternative fiscal charter. But, according to the BBC, that won't happen.
Labour sources say John McDonell will not be announcing an alternative Fiscal Charter for today's debate
3.16pm BST
Labour and other parties support the idea of a constitutional convention. To establish how that could work, two four-day "citizen's assemblies" are being held in the next few weeks in Southampton and Sheffield to allow people to discuss the future of the areas. They are being organised by Democracy Matters, a group involving academics and the Electoral Reform Society. There are more details here, on its website.
3.06pm BST
Jon Ashworth, the shadow minister without portfolio, has written to David Cameron following his refusal to answer Kevin Brennan's question about when he learnt about Lord Ashcroft's non-dom status. In it, he points out that after PMQs Cameron's spokesman dodged this question 11 times.
In the post-PMQs briefing, David Cameron's spokesman was asked 11 times exactly when Cam learned about Lord Ashcroft's tax status. No answer
Desperate attempts to avoid giving a straight answer mean the questions are only growing and it's beginning to look like the prime minister has got something to hide. He needs to come clean and he needs to do so straight away.
3.01pm BST
And here's a Guardian video with another exchange from PMQs.
2.34pm BST
More than 450 UK service personnel died in Afghanistan but sadly the Taliban are back. The UK spent 13 times more bombing Libya than in rebuilding the country and there has been anarchy. The US has just dropped a 500m US dollar programme to support the Syrian opposition, Russia is bombing Syria and the UK has no plan to help Syrian refugees who have made it to Europe.
There is no surprise that there is growing scepticism about the drumbeat towards war. Will the prime minister give an assurance that he has learned the lessons of Iraq, of Afghanistan, and Libya and he will never repeat them?
I can't remember a question with so many errors in. First of all, the idea that Britain isn't helping Syrian refugees when we are the second largest bilateral donor to Syrian refugee camps in Jordan, in Lebanon, in Turkey, and that's because we're spending 0.7% of our gross national income on aid. We've done more than almost any other country in the world to help Syrian refugees but frankly, I don't recognise the picture you paint of Afghanistan - the fact is that we have supported an Afghan national army and police force and an Afghan government that are in control of that country.
But the final point I'd make to you is it's all very well standing on your high horse and lecturing about the past - would you be happier with an Afghanistan that had a Taliban regime and al Qaida in Afghanistan? Would you be happier with Gaddafi running Libya, would you be happier with that situation? So as I said, the consequences of non-intervention are also worth considering.
Can you help clear something up for the House and the country and it concerns the recent biography of you by Isabel Oakeshott? In it Lord Ashcroft says he told you in 2009 about his non dom tax status and yet in 2010 you said you didn't know the detail of Lord Ashcroft's tax status. Clearly someone is telling porkies. Is it you or Lord Ashcroft?
But as ever with the SNP, they invent a grievance before it even exists.
It is important and I think for the most part that is a shared view across the House. It is obviously of great concern that the leader of the Labour party as recently as August, when asked to condemn IRA terrorism, said that he condemned the actions of the British Army in Northern Ireland.
1.57pm BST
Here's a Guardian video with highlights from PMQs.
1.33pm BST
And this is what political journalists are saying about PMQs on Twitter.
Generally, Jeremy Corbyn has made a good impression.
My snap verdict on who won this week's #PMQs http://t.co/hldpxRHhCo pic.twitter.com/8tC3flWLJ4
PMQs a narrow win for Corbyn. Much better attack lines than last time, landed some blows and cheered his backbenches
Can we call that a Corbyn win? Sort of, maybe, a bit. Should have mentioned Saudis and stuck harder on tax credits. But not bad #PMQs
#PMQs This week's score. Well, no great substance or drama, but Corbyn kept his dignity & Cam was civil. So let's call it 3 all.Can it last?
PMQs: The Instant Verdict.... http://t.co/QFWahxij0r
My #PMQs review: Corbyn's best moment as leader http://t.co/RhfCtXiByq
It was a creditable outing from Corbyn at #PMQs, but the bottom line remains - dull and polite is fine for the PM.
#pmqs summary: Corbyn did better, but his slow questions meant Cameron had lots of time to think of a response.
I might be in the minority, but I like this new #pmqs from Corbyn. Better than watching 2 people try and out-soundbite each other #pmqs
By recounting stories of real people in poverty or struggling with housing, Corbyn dignifies PMQs, and raises the tone. It's progress.
Jeremy Corbyn much better at PMQs today. May yet use it to good effect. #PMQs
COMMENT #PMQs turning into PM's Surgery. Reasonably questions, reasonably answered. Won't damage either JC or DC. JC does not rise to bait.
Corbyn's new #pmqs style still a work in progress but civility + policy detail definitely have potential to get better of Cameron.
Making the PM look uncomfortable on policy & also coming up with some TV-friendly soundbites. Might Corbyn actually be quite good at #pmqs..
Know it's not great theatre, but am liking this new-style #PMQS
.@jeremycorbyn channeling the "world weary headmaster with trying pupil" vibe quite effectively today #PMQs
Corbyn's doing much better today with these questions. Far more coherent than last week, and better prepared for Cameron's answers #pmqs
Corbyn should have stuck with tax credits. Cameron was struggling on that #PMQs
Better outing from Corbyn. Tax credits a useful scab to pick at. Cameron sound on the big economics. But the Corbyn deprecation of Dave good
Has Jeremy Corbyn killed #PMQs? The laboured questions take forever and remove the pace of debate. MPs are studying Twitter on their phones.
One feature of this new PMQs is that Cameron takes out his pent up aggression on the SNP's Angus Robertson when he asks his two questions
1.09pm BST
PMQs - Verdict: During the Conservative party conference, David Cameron, and other ministers, were asked repeatedly to accept that millions of low-paid workers will lose out from the tax credit cuts (or the work penalty, as Owen Jones says we should call it, in a column that Jeremy Corbyn, unlike Jess Phillips - see 11.44am - appears not to have read). Andrew Neil was probably the only broadcaster who seriously troubled his interviewees on this (though not Cameron, of course, because Number 10 is far too smart to let Cameron anywhere near Neil). Despite the fact that it is obvious that the budget giveaways won't remotely compensate for the tax credit cuts, Cameron and others mostly managed to wriggle their way out of these interviews quite easily.
Today Jeremy Corbyn used his first three questions to have a go on the same topic himself. As in September, his tone was mature, reflective and sensible - and that made a welcome contrast with the usual, old-style PMQs. He even made the point about people like Kelly losing out massively quite forcefully.
12.38pm BST
The SNP's Marion Fellows says some of her constituents are suffering real hardship because of the way child support is paid. There are no penalties if parents do not pay the money they are meant to pay.
John Bercow says MPs need to ask shorter questions. (We have already over-run by seven minutes.)
12.36pm BST
Liz McInnes, a Labour MP, asks if trade union members will be able to cast their votes electronically in strike ballots under the trade union bill.
Cameron says it is not clear yet that electronic voting can be used in a way that is safe and secure. If people are planning to go on strike, it is not too much to expect them to fill in a ballot paper, he says.
12.35pm BST
Lucy Allan, a Conservative, asks about the case review into the murder of Georgia Williams.
Cameron says the police need to learn the lessons from this "tragic" case.
12.33pm BST
Cheryl Gillan, a Conservative, asks about a decision being taken on Friday by Nice about whether a new drug will be approved.
Cameron says the decision must be made by clinicians. But the government needs to talk to drug companies about getting the cost of drugs down. This one can cost 400,000 per patient per year.
12.32pm BST
Cameron says he wants to build on the government's record of increasing the number of low-income students going to university.
12.31pm BST
Cameron says if you do not believe in having a surplus after nine years, when will you have one. Labour MPs should support the Tories on the fiscal charter tonight, he says.
12.30pm BST
Labour's Kevin Brennan asks when Cameron found out about Lord Ashcroft's non-dom status. Someone is telling porkies.
Cameron says Brennan should have better things to do than read Ashcroft's book. He offers to lend him a copy. In 2010 Labour and the Tories both backed a ban on non-doms being in the Lords, a ban that Cameron proposed, he says.
12.28pm BST
Victoria Prentis, the Conservative MP for Banbury, asks about housing in her constituency, which is next to Cameron's.
Cameron says Bicester shows that councils in the south east do favour building.
12.28pm BST
Labour's Holly Lynch asks if Cameron will meet with her to discuss how the Tories can honour their promise to protect services at a local hospital.
Cameron says these decisions should be made locally. Calderdale hospital is a vital service, he says.
12.27pm BST
Cameron says councils need to complete their local plans, so that more building can take place.
12.26pm BST
The SNP's Callum McCaig asks if Scotland will gets its fair share of the money from the apprenticeship levy.
Cameron says Scotland will get its fair share. But the rate of the levy has not been decided, not the size of firm it will apply to. As ever, the SNP are inventing a grievance before it even exist, he says.
12.25pm BST
Nigel Huddleston, a Conservative, asks about the new national infrastructure commission.
Cameron says he is delighted he is establishing this. He hopes it will put infrastructure decisions beyond politics. And Lord Adonis will be an excellent chair.
12.22pm BST
Snap PMQs Verdict: That was a creditable performance from Jeremy Corbyn - serious and abuse-free, in a manner that seemed to go down well last month (see 11.51am) - but, even though Corbyn was using follow-up questions today, he has not worked out how to "weaponise" them, and Cameron was hardly discomforted at all.
12.18pm BST
Corbyn says it would be nice if Cameron answered the question asked. John Bercow urges MPs to calm down. Corbyn says he is calm. What will Cameron do to let councils borrow to fund building? Cameron can write to him on this. Yesterday was secondary breast cancer awareness day. Corbyn discussed this with two women in Brighton yesterday. Cameron had promised their organisation that data on this would be collected. But that has not happened. Will Cameron undertake to do this?
Cameron says he has met these campaigners at his conference. They are asking for more information, so that we can be sure we are spreading the best practice in every hospital. He says he will write to the health secretary about this. It is essential to tackle secondary breast cancer properly.
12.15pm BST
Corbyn says he will bring Cameron back to reality. That provokes jeering. Rents are rising. Even the CBI says an extra 240,000 extra homes are needed. Will Cameron let councils build more homes?
Cameron says now that the housing association movement is backing right-to-buy, more homes will be built. And since he became prime minister, more council homes have been built than during the 13 years of Labour. And we need a strong economy. That won't happen if the government follows Labour's policy of borrowing for ever.
12.13pm BST
Corbyn says Cameron is doing his best. But people in work rely on tax credits. Inequality is getting worse, not better. Shouldn't Cameron think about the choices he is making?
Cameron says the bill for tax credits went from 6bn to 30b between 1998 and 2010, but in-work poverty went up.
12.08pm BST
Jeremy Corbyn also pays tribute to the dead RAF airmen, and the dead policeman. And he pays tribute to those killed in the Turkish bomb attack.
He reads a question from Kelly, who will lose money from the tax credit cuts. How much worse off will she be?
12.04pm BST
Karl McCartney, a Conservative, asks about the fall in unemployment. The recovery would be put in jeopardy by the "shambles" represented by the "honourable" (ie, not a privy counsellor yet) Jeremy Corbyn.
Cameron says his government has a long-term economic plan.
12.02pm BST
Lisa Cameron, an SNP MP, asks about funding for mental health treatment for members of the armed forces.
Cameron praises his namesake for raising this. There is an opportunity to look at this in the strategic defence review. And the defence budget will be rising.
12.01pm BST
David Cameron starts by paying tribute to two RAF airmen who were killed in the helicopter crash in Kabul. And he pays tribute to David Phillips, the police officer killed in Liverpool.
12.00pm BST
Little nod between Cameron and Corbyn across the floor ahead of #pmqs. Lovely to see
12.00pm BST
Jeremy Corbyn's press officer had trouble getting into the press gallery for PMQs.
Corbyn spinner Kevin Slocombe stopped at 1st attempt to enter gallery for #pmqs - wasn't wearing a tie. Has donned 1 of the emergency ties.
11.59am BST
This is from the Conservative MP Jake Berry.
Corbyn arrives at #PMQs, greeted by wall silence from his own side. #Awkward
11.58am BST
Corbyn allies Clive Lewis, Kate Osamor, Richard Burgon all sitting on 2nd row ready to cheer on the leader at PMQs
11.57am BST
Must be very tempting for Cameron to shoehorn in a reference to 'Ben from Exeter' in response to Corbyn's crowd sourced questions at PMQS
That's a reference to what the Labour MP Ben Bradshaw had to say after Monday's meeting of the parliamentary Labour party.
11.55am BST
Jeremy Corbyn looks relaxed ahead of PMQs, my colleague Gaby Hinsliff reports.
Just passed a rather relaxed looking Jeremy from Islington, heading in for #pmqs (sadly I'm heading the other way for an interview)
11.51am BST
After Jeremy Corbyn's first PMQS, YouGov carried out some polling to find out whether voters liked his new, serious, abuse-free approach. As Peter Kellner writes in a post for the YouGov website, they did. Here is an extract.
Among those who said they had either watched the whole of PMQs, or seen news clips from it, we found a marked improvement in three respects, compared with two years ago:
That's the good news; however, in other respects, there has been little or no movement, with 37% saying it was informative (compared with 36% in 2013), 20% describing it as 'exciting to watch' (20% in 2013), and 14% saying 'it made me proud of our Parliament' (12% last time). The proportion saying 'it dealt with the important issues facing the country' was actually down, from 40% to 35%. This probably reflects Corbyn's decision to concentrate on specific cases rather than large, fundamental issues.
The obvious conclusion is that Corbyn - and therefore Cameron - are on the right track. In three respects, public approval is up sharply; on the only one where the figures have gone backwards, the change is a modest five points. A sustained change to a more courteous and informative approach to PMQs would win public approval.
I fear that an excessively courteous PMQs would go the way of Liaison Committee meetings: civilised, but little noticed. The biggest single reason why PMQ attracts so much attention is that it is often dramatic. And it is usually dramatic precisely because it is raw and rumbustious - or, in the words of our question for the Hansard Society, 'noisy and aggressive'.
11.44am BST
PMQs starts in about 15 minutes.
On BBC News a few minutes ago Clive Lewis, the Corbyn-supporting Labour MP, said that he expected Jeremy Corbyn to use questions from members of the public at PMQs today, as he did at his first PMQs last month, but to include some follow-up questions too. Last time he did not use follow-ups, which allowed David Cameron to go unchallenged.
11.33am BST
John McDonnell is not the only west London MP who has been sending out mixed messages recently. Last week Boris Johnson gave a speech to the Conservative conference suggesting there should be much tougher controls on EU migration. But today, on his tour of Japan, he has been making the point that low immigration can lead to economic stagnation. Speaking in Tokyo he said:
They [the Japanese] have been going through a long period of stagnation but they are hoping to pull out of it. They have got demographic problems. One of the questions that people in Britain might think about is obviously that they have very, very low immigration and very, very low, in fact negative, population growth, they have got a shrinking population.
That has, of course, contributed to the long period of economic stagnation they are going through but that has got to be seen in context. This is still an amazing, dynamic, vibrant, fantastically rich economy, the third biggest in the world and we have got to be here.
11.20am BST
Lord Bamford, the JCB chairman and a major donor to the Conservative party, has written an article for the Daily Telegraph criticising David Cameron for keeping people "in the dark" about his EU renegotiation.
My main concern is that we're being kept in the dark on the negotiations. Keeping us in the dark is not helping the government, in my view, nor will it help convince the public when the referendum comes around. The prime minister has stated that he is seeking proper full-on treaty change and a fundamental change in Britain's relationship with the EU. I applaud his ambition and sincerely wish him well but I do believe we're entitled to greater transparency. We need to see some real detail.
We hear a lot about the risks of leaving the EU, but we do not hear enough about the risks of staying in. We do not have enough sovereign control over our own affairs now but will we have still less in the future? We are over-regulated now but will it become even more onerous? ...
If the government fails to secure truly radical reform, I will have no other choice but to vote to leave. Let me be clear: Britain's exit from the EU is not my preferred option, but if that's what happens, so be it. If the choice of the British people is to leave, we have nothing to fear but fear itself.
11.08am BST
Here is some more reaction to the unemployment figures. (See 9.45am.)
From Frances O'Grady, the TUC general secretary
Renewed employment growth is welcome and while there are still years of lost ground to make up it's good to see private sector wages rising. But public sector workers are increasingly falling behind. The challenge now is delivering a recovery that works for everyone across the country, regardless of which region or sector they work in.
Despite today's improvements, it is also clear that there is still spare capacity in the jobs market. With inflation at zero, and rising numbers of workers in temporary jobs looking for full-time work, there is no case for immediate rate rises.
It's encouraging to see unemployment falling again, after a pause earlier this year. But there is significant variation in the extent to which this jobs' revival has been shared across the country. Many parts of the UK remain a long way short of their pre-recession levels.
The job losses at Redcar steel works and JCB are dark clouds on the horizon. Employment growth is likely to slow as large cuts in public sector employment kick in and as lower-paid workers seek more hours to make up for the nearly 30 per week cuts they face in tax credits.
James Sproule, chief economist at the Institute of Directors, said: "Another month of impressive jobs figures and strong wage growth show that the business-led recovery is well on track. Despite uncertainties at home and abroad, employers have continued to create jobs, raise productivity and boost pay in a vote of confidence in the British economy.
"Employment is up in most sectors and across the country, pay is growing and long-term, short-term, and youth unemployment are all falling. This is a welcome sign of a healthy economy, a strong private sector, and a tightening labour market."
Another month of impressive jobs figures and strong wage growth show that the business-led recovery is well on track. Despite uncertainties at home and abroad, employers have continued to create jobs, raise productivity and boost pay in a vote of confidence in the British economy.
Employment is up in most sectors and across the country, pay is growing and long-term, short-term, and youth unemployment are all falling. This is a welcome sign of a healthy economy, a strong private sector, and a tightening labour market.
11.00am BST
My colleagues Owen Bowcott and Ian Cobain have written up the Investigatory Powers Tribunal ruling. Here's the start of their story.
MPs' and peers' private communications are not protected from spying by the so-called Wilson doctrine that was widely thought to provide special privileges for parliamentarians, according to court ruling.
A surprise decision by the investigatory powers tribunal (IPT) has found that guarantees - which even the home secretary, Theresa May, reasserted this week - do not apply.
10.56am BST
The so-called "Wilson doctrine", a rule that supposedly protects MPs from being spied upon, has "no legal effect", the Investigatory Powers Tribunal has said today.
It made the ruling in a case bought by the Green MP Caroline Lucas, the Green peer Jenny Jones and the former Respect MP George Galloway. In 1966 Harold Wilson, the then Labour prime minister, announced that MPs would be guaranteed that they would not have their phones tapped. Subsquent prime ministers, including David Cameron, have said this still applies, but Lucas, Jones and Galloway wanted an assurance that this meant MPs would not have their emails subject to mass internet surveillance by GCHQ.
The Tribunal accordingly answers the preliminary issues attached to this judgment as follows:
i) The Wilson Doctrine does not apply to s.8(4) warrants at the stage of issue.
This judgement is a body blow for parliamentary democracy. My constituents have a right to know that their communications with me aren't subject to blanket surveillance - yet this ruling suggests that they have no such protection.
Parliamentarians must be a trusted source for whistle blowers and those wishing to challenge the actions of the government. That's why upcoming legislation on surveillance must include a provision to protect the communications of MPs, Peers, MSPs, AMs and MEPS from extra-judicial spying.
The prime minister has been deliberately ambiguous on this issue - showing utter disregard for the privacy of those wanting to contact parliamentarians.
10.02am BST
Here's George Osborne, the chancellor, on the unemployment figures. (See 9.45pm.)
It is great news that Britain's economic plan continues to create jobs and increase pay. We've got the highest rate of employment in our history, and real terms pay rising strongly.
But with recent data showing our trading partners' growth is slowing we must not be complacent. All of this progress will be at risk unless we carry on with our plan to build a resilient economy, delivering the economic security of a country that lives within its means.
This is a fantastic set of figures, which show more people in work than ever before and a strong growth in wages. That is a credit to British business, and a credit to the hardworking people of this country.
Alongside this, unemployment has fallen to the lowest level since 2008, and long-term unemployment has dropped by a staggering quarter over the last year.
9.45am BST
And here's the top of the Press Association story about the unemployment figures.
Unemployment has fallen to a seven-year low while a record number of people are in work, new figures have shown.
The jobless total dipped by 79,000 to 1.7m in the quarter to August, the lowest figure since the summer of 2008, giving a jobless rate of 5.4%.
9.41am BST
Here are the headline unemployment figures.
9.33am BST
The BBC's Norman Smith has produced a quite useful "idiot's guide" to the fiscal charter.
9.20am BST
John McDonnell, the shadow chancellor, was doorstepped by the BBC as he left home this morning. He jokingly admitted that his policy U-turn had been confusing to MPs, but he said he would "clarify everything" today.
He also predicted that Labour MPs would ignore George Osborne's suggestion that they should vote with the Tories on the fiscal charter.
Q: Is Labour's economic policy in chaos?
JM: No. I'll set it out today. It will be fairly clear.
9.04am BST
David Blanchflower (aka "Danny"), the former Bank of England monetary policy committee member who is now a member of Labour's economic advisory committee, told the Today programme this morning that the party was right to vote against the fiscal charter.
It was "a stunt that has no place in economic policy", he said.
The right decision has been put in place to oppose the chancellor's political game, a stunt that has no place in economic policy ...
Tying yourself to a silly rule that nobody is ever going to obey makes absolutely no sense, especially as the economy is now slowing ...
This is early days, policy making is messy and it takes some time to work out what you are going to do ... There are clearly political things going on. I think the right decision has now been reached.
8.55am BST
Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnell are the two most important figures in Labour and they both face significant encounters in the House of Commons today.
For Corbyn, it's his second PMQs. His first was judged a success, although many commentators said that relying on "crowdsourced" questions would have its limitations as a long-term tactic.
George Osborne has moved to exploit Labour's disarray on economic policy by urging its MPs to vote for government's fiscal responsibility charter, and so reject the shadow chancellor's last-minute U-turn.
John McDonnell gave a series of explanations for his volte-face on the Treasury charter, which commits the government to produce budget surpluses at times of economic growth, and which he had said as recently as two weeks ago he would support. His reasons ranged from a meeting with redundant steelworkers in Redcar to a downturn in the world economy.
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