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I do know that there are incompatibilities between the two versions. But there are also old 2.x codes that will run just fine on 3.x, so what I meant is that maybe these Mailman tools could run just fine on 3.x ... or maybe not. I agree that going all-3.x would simplify this for us. Apologies for not being clear in my phrasing :-)

LWN had a brief review of Mailman/HyperKitty a few weeks ago here: #5XX6

Mailman was getting a bit long in the tooth and some of these improvements look compelling, like the web front-ends that give easy access to archives and such. There's a lot to be said for mailing lists as communication vehicles. They have all the benefits of Usenet with more finegrained controls and the ability of each user to choose the mail reader s/he likes best, etc. There's also a decent sense of community on mailing lists - all a good thing. Glad to see Mailman is keeping it fresh. I'll be interested in checking this out.

What ever happened to mayordomo, by the way? Remember when people talked about being on LISTSERVs? That word has gone the way of Telnet and FTP - gone to all but the crustiest of greybeards and server admins.

[submitter's note]: some details in the announcements seemed a bit weird to me, notable, I quote, "The core requires Python 3.4 while Postorius and HyperKitty require Python 2.7.". Why use two different (and maybe incompatible) versions of python ?

That's not a 'maybe': Python 2.x and 3.x are incompatible, since Python 3 made some backwards incompatible changes to clean up the language. While it is easy enough to run each process in a different Python version, it would simplify things if they just updated all subprojects to Python 3.x. There is a conversion tool for it (2to3) that works pretty well in my experience.

I really want to mod this, "Sad but true".

So, basically, we are laying down the infrastructure to realise the plots of several action movies?

100% on the external drive. Every few days I rsync it with an identical one. So if one crashes I can immediately plug in the spare and have an identical system. The code I write is of course spread over several git repositories. So it is more up-to-date than 'every few days'. USB3 drives... so I am quite happy with the speed. And if my computer crashes, I don't have to open it, to get the internal disk... Of course, I don't throw it away, but I don't have to get it immediately. Nothing important on it.... only Windows and a few games.

Where does your home directory live?

I guess you are right. I was thinking of OS releases, not (individual) packages.

??? I think all the options above are perfectly valid for rolling releases, too.

I run a rolling release distro, you insensitive clod!

So no response?

I think you make a mistake. You are on a level, which is that high and certainly took quite some time to reach, that you forgot your humble beginnings. Seems to be a common trait. Happens to me, too. At first something new is difficult. Curses, when something does not work as expected, can be heard between here and alpha centauri. Finally the problem is understood and it becomes easy. And in a few years the initial problems are forgotten. :-)

Of course, installing LFS won't bring anyone even close to your level, but it is a stepping stone. And not everybody needs to setup his own DNS or email server. A web server and openssh is a nice practice, when done the first time without blindly accepting whatever is pre-defined by the distribution. But maybe LFS is doing all this now. The last time I used it was ~10 years ago.

If all you want is a web server or openssh server, then what you wrote is true. Try to just install DNS or email servers and you will see they are not coming ready configured.

Even with modern Linuxes, I need to script almost every week. So many tasks are not done automatically. Last week I made a script backuping all Extreme switches and Zhone dslams and other network equipment (ca 50 boxes). Now I have a crontab entry backuping them daily, so whenever one of those goes down I can quickly drop in another one.

As a system administrator I have to deal with huge amount of user names. Only a crazy person would add and remove them manually with either adduser from CLI or from any GUI. I created a script parsing a text file with all names. From that text file, my script generates usernames and passwords and After adding the user to the system, it outputs to a CSV file. That way I do not have to deal with mistakes and I save a lot of work.

Before that I had to make a box for presentations. The customer wanted to have an easy way to get PowerPoint presentations running on a screen at a library. I quickly installed Linux, made some simple scripts to do an automatic TTY login, startx, running mplayer in fullscreen cycling through all files which are accessable through samba. PowerPoint got a presentation->mpg4 export built in.

These are all trivial things, but nothing a complete newbie will be able to do after going through LFS. LFS is not teaching Linux. It is teaching how to install packages. If a newbie would run a distro with limited quantity of packages, like Slackware, he would have to learn it anyway, but rather than compiling the whole system he can begin learning real Linux (= becoming fluent in CLI, scripting, configuring services, etc).

My Linux is only on external hard drives. If something goes terribly wrong... unplug drive 01, plug in drive 02... Reboot.
Next step, if necessary: rsync drive 02 -> drive 01. Damage fixed. Currently Debian unstable is a bit botched, but not to the extend that a drive switch or rsync is necessary.

Do we want them here?

Actually using Linux is not enough. Today's distributions are so streamlined that rarely anything goes wrong. I learn only by solving problems. No problems = no deeper knowledge. Setting up servers? Where is the problem? Most servers in most distributions come pre-configured with automatic dependency resolution. Not that I complain, that's the way it should be. When I need a server I want it fast. In the 90th one could learn plenty just by using Linux. Today? Not much more than you can learn Windows by using Windows.

And... ./configure --prefix=/whatever; make; make install. is not enough. it is the absolute minimum. But if you want more functionality, better system integration, it still is hunting dependencies, solving compatibility problems.

I have to disagree with you. Yes, I have once made an LFS. So what did I learn? Nothing. Several years of Linux usage had already thaught me how to compile packages. The steps for each package is almost the same: ./configure --prefix=/whatever; make; make install.

You do not have to build a whole distro in order to learn Linux. The better way to learn Linux is to actually use it. Set a goal for what you want done and then get it done. The goal might be anything from some simple shell scripts to setting up servers.

And where the hell did the Moderate button disappear to?

Because changing the drop down option will immediately change the moderation when you have JavaScript enabled, the "button" is not needed. However, if you turn off JavaScript in your profile settings, the moderate button will be visible and must be pressed to submit the form.

Ubuntu derivatives? Or Debian derivatives? ;-)

Did it once with LFS (http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/). It is fun to do. One learns quite a bit about Linux. IMHO if one wants to work a Linux system administrator it is almost a must. However, it is absolutely no fun to keep such a system up-to-date. Changing dependencies. Following security advisories. It is a full time job. As software developer I prefer a standard distribution. Which one? Don't care. As a compromise I manage my most used tools... gcc/clang/qt/cmake... myself. This way no update can unexpectedly pull the rug from under my feet. I can easily change the distribution. And I learn about possible problems in my tools, which otherwise might be hidden due to distribution specific patches.

That would be just fine with me. Currently there are too many Ubuntu derivatives, in my opinion. Time for a little more diversity in the ecosystem.

As if taking control of a navy vessel isn't bad enough...

In 3 ... 2...

Yes, there are aftermarket ECUs and also ECUs for racing that could be adapted to run a street car. But in my state (NY), my car has to pass a state inspection every year that is partly done through the OBDII interface. The inspection station querys the engine computer to make sure that the emissions system is working correctly. When I looked at the two sites you mention I didn't see any mention of this capability (maybe I'm not looking in the right place)?

Desalination is getting cheaper by the year. Currently, it might only be 2X the cost of traditional supplies:

http://pipedot.org/story/2014-09-22/largest-desalination-plant-in-the-hemisphere-to-supply-7-of-san-diegos-water

And renewables are a great power source for desalination... The process can start/stop based on electricity supply/prices without trouble, and any excess can be easily stored, long-term.

Pity that in the 21st century we still can't purify and pipe water everywhere cheaply. Nuclear power was meant to bring this along with cheap power.

Used to be higher than that

Actually, it used-to be lower... $19/mo for unlimited voice/text + 5GB of data. You can still get that plan if you buy a used Defy XT (or an even older LG Optimus) phone from an old RW customer. Lots of reasons not to do that, though... Old Android 2.x phone, and WiFi to cell hand-off apparently never worked properly.

But do they resell Sprint, like most of these MVNOs?? cuz that's not real useful in my area.

They offer FREE roaming onto Verizon for VOICE calls at least. It's only where you've got a weak Sprint signal that keeps breaking up that you'll curse their coverage... No roaming data right now, but that could change (likely for an extra fee).

RW is a little cheap and rough around the edges... Their voicemail timestamps are stuck on EDT times, with no indication they'll ever fix it. Text & calls on rare occasions may appear to come from a different phone#. etc.

Used to be higher than that; it's changed since last I looked, now definitely looks attractive.

https://republicwireless.com/plans/

But do they resell Sprint, like most of these MVNOs?? cuz that's not real useful in my area.

Also means it'll have the same limited area service as Sprint and T-Mobile, neither of which is worth much here in Montana.

I've had T-Mobile -- reception was decent, but could not get voicemail in any roaming area.

I've had service via a Sprint reseller -- worst reception ever. Zero to two bars when anything else got four, and 3-4 bars when everything else got five.

So I feel less than enthusiastic on those counts.

As to the cost -- maybe if they'd offer phone only (unlimited) and BYOP (I'm not interested in buying another phone for their service; I already own Sprint and T-Mobile specific phones). I'm not interested in paying $10/GB to use a crappy phone interface.

And where the hell did the Moderate button disappear to??

Agreed. We do know we have Neanderthal DNA left over in us today. Maybe we are the "mutts".

cars have had their black boxes pried open by congress. companies must provide an OBDII interface. however, there are reverse engineered ECU solutions like at http://openecu.org as well as from scratch ECU replacements like at http://rusefi.com

Main Fuck John Deere Turn On...

That too. I've often wondered how many of the specimens we have were not actually from a separate species, but rather, just outlier specimens of the same species.

And how many outliers of other species have been misidentified as belonging to various proto-humans, too.

Without DNA analysis, we're really just guessing. What if they were looking at the fossilized remains of all of today's 300+ breeds of dog, with all the variation those encompass? would they be ID'd as 300 different species??

Do any exist? I can't think of a single automobile on the market that doesn't come with enough chips, sensors, and electronics to choke a donkey.

It's expensive economically but interesting technically. If it leads to interest the market may open up and prices will come down as a result.

If there is product with a black box of secrets, the answer is to simply not buy it. If you buy something with a black box, don't complain when they do something bad to you, reverse engineer it or buy something without a black box. There is almost nothing that doesn't have an open and free or reverse engineered alternative. The general populace started the PC revolution with proprietary everything and we are still working hard to undo that mistake.

And your power distribution systems, and your nuclear power SC ADA systems, and your traffic lights and ... and ... and ...

Good times.

Republic Wireless is also an MVNO, and yet they have better pricing.

Remember, Google is just a middle man in this new service. The actual data is still being transfered using the T-Mobile and Sprint backend networks. This means, other than bulk discounts, Google is totally dependent on the pricing of the underlying services.

Ars has compiled a really nice price comparison here: #7M6Y

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I disagree completely, all they've done since 95 is to kill radio. The abilities of DAB and DAB+ are oversold and the receivers far too expensive and limited and the very few stations that were worth listening to have long since moved onto the net, outright died, or both. No surprise that the batshit religious loons, Christian and otherwise, and government propaganda known as news is still going strong. Working people listen to shit like Radio 1 not because it's any good but because it's less mental torture to listen to the latest pop song for the two hundredth time than to listen to any of the other shit, it's not because of traffic updates, people have no trouble figuring out on their own that there will be queues during rush hour or that otherwise it will be some accident holding everything up.

There is no actual diversity of opinion or anything factual, only diversity of insanity and that includes Radio Nova for those who know what I'm talking about. I haven't paid one krone towards DAB/DAB+ and I'm not planning to, and since I don't have a TV I don't even have to pay the otherwise forced license fee which is about a hundred USD every half year. A lot of people have started doing the same which is why the socialists are aiming to make it a general tax instead. The label socialist includes social democrats since those bastards sing The Internationale at party rallies, the song of praise for international socialism and communism.

Shortwave or software defined radio or ham radio sounds far more interesting than any of the modern proprietary/totalitarian crap.

Anonymity? Yeah right not a chance.

Hmmm... $20/mo + $10/GB doesn't sound competitive, unless your data usage is MASSIVELY inconsistent from month to month, usually using just a bit of data, but sometime needing HUGE amounts of data.

T-Mobile has offered a $30/mo 5GB service for years. Republic Wireless (on Sprint) offers 5GB of LTE for $40/mo and 3g for just $25/mo both with unlimited voice/text/mms. Boost/Virgin (Sprint) offer 2.5GB LTE for $35/mo. If you're going to use more than 6GB/mo, Sprint's completely unlimited $80/mo plan (which drops for each successive phone) should do it.

All your tractors are belong to us

I wanted to mod you up but I could not find an appropriate option... I was looking for something like "sad but true" or "we are so fucked"...

Soon we will be paying for our own government to spy on us by metadata collection. Come on down Google! No doubt Google could do the same job for much cheaper.

Don't forget college radio. It can be a crapshoot, but even in rural areas if you're near a college town there's a good chance at finding more eclectic playlists than ClearChannel.

(Is there such a thing as college radio in other parts of the world?)

Just restore from yesterday's daily offsite backup. What's that? You don't do that? Guess your data wasn't all that important to you then.

You'd be surprised to know that the source code of Windows is actually already available (and has been for quite a while) to various governments, companies and universities. It is distributed under very restrictive license and non-disclosure agreements for research (security, new technologies, etc.) and new product integration purpose.

see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shared_source for more info (Microsoft Enterprise Source Licensing Program, Microsoft Windows Academic Program, Microsoft Government Security Program, Most Valuable Professionals Source Licensing Program)

disclaimer: I swear that I've never ever had a look at Windows source code (that way or another).

Or that the lines delineating human and proto-human species are blurrier than traditional taxonomy is adequate to describe. We don't have DNA samples from specimens that ancient, AFAIK.